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Author Topic: 7.21 - Unto the Breach  (Read 341723 times)
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wheredidmickgo
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« Reply #240 on: May 09, 2007, 09:20:50 pm »

to me, the word soulmate implies that they are your one and only- the person you're destined to be with, and the only one you can find true happiness with.  i disagree with this concept.  i believe that if both parties give enough effort and strive to live a good life, most anyone can have a beautifully working marriage/relationship.  there are some people in the world that you would work better with (and on the other hand some people you wouldn't want to put effort into and therefore it wouldn't work).  there are some people that you can build an incredible and special bond with, when the timing is right and you let down barriers and communicate well and seek together the light.   i'm not saying there can't be fireworks and happy endings and deep undying love.  i just believe that you aren't limited to feeling that with just one person in the world. 

[gets off soap box]
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« Reply #241 on: May 09, 2007, 09:27:44 pm »

Im sorry, but why are you happy gilmore girls is ending?!

Because of the damage the writers have done to the characters and their lives. 

I live in uber happy world.  Cheesy  In my world, Logan and Rory got married and Rory found 100 different opportunities to choose from and they set a wedding date for a year in the future.  And then Luke kissed Lorelai like he really meant it and she realized she didn't HAVE to have a wedding ring. 

But that's not the real world.  Wink 

Instead, Luke became emasculated because Lorelai asked him to marry her, then he found out he had a kid of his own that his ex wife just had to FIGHT over (instead of the writers celebrating Luke learning about fatherhood).  Lorelai about bust a gut when he wouldn't marry her and then she forced him for an ultimatum (yeah, that's what a guy really wants), then when he wouldn't acquiesce, she ran off and slept with Christopher.  Then because she was so needy, she married Christopher so she wouldn't have to be alone.  Then she showed Chris what she REALLY thought about him when she couldn't get excited about their REAL wedding.  Then she was alone again because Chris realized she didn't love him and she mourned the loss of Luke, but instead of being honest with Luke about her feelings they have some veiled argument over Rory's breaking up with Logan like she and Luke were still in high school and .... yikes, I'm depressing myself! 

This show could have done so much to show the incredible strength that today's single mom's need as they raise their kids and for a while it did.  Then Amy got bored and screwed everything up.

Every interview I've seen where they've talked to the actors on the Gilmore Girls, they said the thing they loved about doing the show the most was the incredible writing.  That's not what they've been getting.  I'm not one for making an actor do something they hate.  Scott's an amazing actor, both he and Lauren should be out doing films now.  They both know how slow the shooting process is for films compared to the breakneck speed they have to learn their TV scripts in.  I don't blame them for wanting to have the opportunity to seek out incredible scripts instead of just doing mediocre work.  I think they've handled it as gracefully as possible without pointing fingers at the writers, like say for example, Kyle Chandler did after they screwed up Early Edition by creating a story line and filling it with a prima donna like Kristy Swanson.  He was pretty harsh with his words about ending the show in the last season that aired.  Everyone I know who met him in person as a fan said he was just as sweet a southern gentleman as you could ask for, but when it came to ending that show...

So, you can see why I am all for the actors going out when they felt it was right and keeping their happy memories.  Maybe 10 years from now we'll get a Gilmore Girls movie of the week or something.  I'd love to see Lorelai with a husband who loves her and two or three more kids and I'd love to see Rory have some confidence to strike out on her own and know she can make great things happen all by herself...even after she's stumbled.  I think that's what we'd hope for anyone.
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« Reply #242 on: May 09, 2007, 09:36:01 pm »

 I will say purlpleflippers (and this is not just directed at you but anyone that thinks Logan is a horrible person or immature for his immediate reaction) that once you have proposed to someone and had them say no to you, no matter the explanations, and you don’t feel like walking away let me know (to be clear I wouldn’t wish that on anyone).  Rory did say she didn’t want to move forward with him through her explanations.  That was pretty clear; she wants to move forward by herself with nothing but the changing winds directing her (okay, that's an overstatement but you know what I mean).  But she also could have kept her word and factored him in to a point of coming up with a compromise.  They both could have (which as far as refusing to, I find more OOC for Logan than Rory).    

I never said that Logan was a "horrible person", i just said that his ultimatum was selfish.....my biggest reason for saying this, is that Rory was ok with a long distance relationship with Logan when he had to go to London, but he wont extend to her the same thing.  Logan didn't just propose to Rory, he wrote out the next few years of her life, and told her it was his way, or no way.  Also, big times of change are emotional enough, without having a proposal, Rory's graduation was a turning point, a huge accomplishment in her life......and it shouldn't have been about Logan and what he wanted.
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« Reply #243 on: May 09, 2007, 10:01:25 pm »

I never said that Logan was a "horrible person", i just said that his ultimatum was selfish.....my biggest reason for saying this, is that Rory was ok with a long distance relationship with Logan when he had to go to London, but he wont extend to her the same thing.  Logan didn't just propose to Rory, he wrote out the next few years of her life, and told her it was his way, or no way.  Also, big times of change are emotional enough, without having a proposal, Rory's graduation was a turning point, a huge accomplishment in her life......and it shouldn't have been about Logan and what he wanted.

Honestly, I thought Logan felt foolish for misjudging how much she loved him and felt used.  Ultimatums are typically what guys do in fear situations.  Other than the screwup at his dad's company that was recent, he really wasn't trained how to overcome failure. He is in the middle of learning that.  He's finally learning to commit and the woman of his dreams treats the pouring out of his heart to her like she's trying to choose between tacos and burritos.  Ultimatums are never right, but I think Logan did the right thing.  If you want to fly with the eagles, you have to be with someone who's willing to soar in the sky, not be still until something better comes along.  Rory's more interested in options than love.  If that's the way she feels, than that's the way she feels, but that's not the signals she was sending Logan. 

It WAS really tacky of Rory to talk to him about something so important in the middle of the campus.  They should have talked about it in a quiet, controlled atmosphere.  That was kinda trashy on Rory's part.  Logan's going to be a businessman now.  He needs a partner that can show some type of social decorum and I think Rory put the question about whether she has it or not to rest pretty soundly with that last move.

Wow, I've edited this three times.  I was just thinking, Lorelai never really supported that relationship anyhow.  She was shocked when Logan came to ask if it was ok to ask Rory to marry him.  She didn't ask him how he was going to do it or make any suggestions like she might have with Jess or Dean.  She was no help at all.  If it was my daughter (I didn't have a girl), I'd want to know his intentions for the whole thing.  That way the social presentation of the ring would have been nipped in the bud.  Or she could have suggested he have "the talk" about what they really meant to one another before asking her.  Lorelai let Logan fall on his own sword.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2007, 10:10:06 pm by Morada » Logged

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« Reply #244 on: May 09, 2007, 10:55:33 pm »

She let Dean fall on his sword, too. In fact, the only guy she's felt comfortable lecturing about the way he treated Rory was Jess.

Logan didn't screw up by making the proposal at her graduation party or hiring a hack and ponies or misjudging her affection. He just got his stuff together before she did. He's an all-or-nothing kind of a guy, and he knows what he wants. She's a pro-con kind of a girl, and (maybe because) she doesn't know what she wants.

For Logan, his family issues are neutralized, his dream job is bagged, and he's got a keen eye for backyards with trees in them. He's totally ready, and he can't figure out why Rory hasn't already fantasized the perfect dress.

Rory, on the other hand, is making an (hypothetically vain) attempt to compartmentalize her love life from her career. Yeah, she's a liberal career woman, not too keen on compromise (either hers to him or his to her,) but Logan was with her as long as Jess and Dean combined, and you don't just get over that in one episode. How many meltdowns is Rory going to have this year?
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« Reply #245 on: May 09, 2007, 11:30:07 pm »

What did Lorelai say to Logan?  I know they didn't show the scene (yet another important scene for a MAIN MAIN MAIN character that they'd rather have off screen, although we've had the privilege of seeing a recurring character like Zach freak out about being a dad on screen) but did Lorelai allude to the specifics of the conversation?  I'm just wondering if she told Sookie that she didn't give him any advice or if that's just the assumption. 

I'm not going to address any specific post (it would go on and on) but I really wish the show wouldn't made every marriage proposal something that was just there with no preparation for the viewers.  Logan's proposal was the least spontaneous, but no one ever talked things over with their significant other.  Did Sookie and Jackson?  Lorelai proposed because she just knew listening to a rant (Go, female proposers!  A strong man is strong enough to handle a woman doing the asking!).  Max blurted out a proposal during a fight.  Christopher was swept up in the whole Paris atmosphere.  Zach proposed in lieu of an apology.  Is sitting down and discussing marriage (with the person you want to marry) before you propose really that unusual?  My brother is a unique creature (in good ways and strange ones) but I don't think he's so out there that he's the only one who talked to his girlfriend about the idea of marriage before he actually asked her.   

Ugh.  I disagree with some things (from people I agree with in the basics) on a really fundamental level, and so I think it's best that I just leave this post right here with the lamenting of unexpected proposals. 

Ah, I think I can safely respond to some things.  Realistically, no, Rory wouldn't get over her longest, most intense relationship in one episode.  But, I think they'll let realism fly.  It's the series finale and I doubt that they'll let one of their stars be unhappy in the last episode.  It's again, a double edged sword.  If Rory is still mourning the loss, that's a crappy way to send off one of the two leads.  Gilmore Girls doesn't strike me as an "innovative" show which would say they'd go for realism and let one of their stars be unhappy at the end.  On the other hand, if she's not still sad in the time frame (and they said no time jump) it makes her relationship with Logan seem shallow, and these writers didn't write a shallow relationship. 

As far as Logan being an all or nothing guy, Logan has always also been very understanding of Rory's pro-con mentality. 
« Last Edit: May 09, 2007, 11:45:04 pm by Dani257 » Logged

 
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« Reply #246 on: May 09, 2007, 11:48:26 pm »

Why did they have that cute guy a couple episodes back if they weren't going to develop it into something for Rory? Remember him? He smiled and so did she and she was embarrassed?
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« Reply #247 on: May 10, 2007, 12:56:23 am »

Well, supposedly the cute guy (I assume you mean the TA) was there to show how strong her relationship with Logan was.  That simply finding a guy cute doesn't mean you want to jump ship with him, and someone secure in their relationship and not a hypocrite can accept that their girlfriend doesn't have to find every other male on the planet ugly.  If something developed between me and every guy I found cute, I'd have more play than Logan in the height of his playboy days.  Logan would seem like a monk compared to me if mere physical attraction was enough to develop something.

But, now, who knows why they did anything they did this season with Rory and her relationship? 
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« Reply #248 on: May 10, 2007, 03:03:53 am »

the rory/logan plotlines this season has been the most interesting in this season but also in many ways they have been nothing but lame, innocent and dumbfound. i think everytime they sparked up something interesting they ended up downplaying it so much in the end it became like just a feather again
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« Reply #249 on: May 10, 2007, 04:55:40 am »

I was left in tears when Rory gave back the ring. I thought that they were going to make it along with Lorlei and Luke but I guess not everything can be happy. Mrs. Gram herself said "I'm glad that the show isn't ending with a wedding." which is sad but she was true when she said it was abouit the family not the relationships that went along with it - but it helped it along. I would have loved to see Rory and Logan together - he really loves her and she loves him. I couldn't think at my age, 18, being married but I could at 21 or 22 - after finishing my schooling - but then again things change.


Rory + Logan Forever!!!![/font][/glow][/color]

Wow, see, this is just the kind of intelligence that i have grown to love here at this forum.  For you to be 18, but able to project into 21 and 22 - that is cool.  I posted elsewhere (but maybe i blew it away - not sure) that my parents were young Dad - 21 and Mom 23 - but that they were responsible.  These days, all this talk about career and you forget one small factor

SOMEONE is gonna have to move for someone eles's career at some point, probably... These days, Maybe not my generation.  So - Logan found the job first - so, Rory moves.  DUH. Yeah, this is truly some saddistic writing hack job on the ending of Gilmore Girls.  This is why i have to basicaly abandon the ending of it and PRETEND that Rory and Logan do get together in the future - the logical, satisfying FUTURE that we all hope into - i mean, come on, how else do half of us live each day, if not looking to the future....  Whatever.

As for what someone else wants - it is the viewer who keeps the show going or kills it. We have always had the power - if we really wanted to use it, we would all BOYCOTT the last show - well, that ain't gonna happen.  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy 

Seriously, these writers are just flipping us all off if you ask me - Why, any common person walking by can see that Rory would accept. DUUUUHHHH. No, the "team" at GG is pissed, and so they are talking it out on the viewers - you can FORGET all this crap about "Oh, Rory and her career"  - that is their lame cover. YOU READ ME YOU TURDS? (in case the writers come here... hehehehe  Grin )

Oh - oh, and what was the little smile bout on Rory's face with the ring, was she just laughing saddisticaly at her conquest (no, that was a 'red herring' to throw off those of us who did NOT read spoilers - i read them though.....)

DANI257
i like what you say about marriage proposals, etc.  I remember when i got "engaged" (and it should have been a good solid marriage, but for my husband being a child of alcoholic fighters who messed him up, so....) Well, we were spooning on the couch, watching TV and he said, "You wanna just get married?"  And i said, "Yeah, i think we should..."  We had been hanging out every single night - together since the first date.  The first date - he got a little drunk and crashed with me (no um, hanky panky, ok?) and then in the morning he left, and i watched him out the window, and for the FIRST time in my life i said, "I am going to marry that man..."

No kidding, just like many other people, i just knew right away.  As i said, he had many "control issues" and so....  He needed a "started wife" to train him. Lucky me.

RE: RORY. Hmm. Let us consider the creation Rory.  She is a "for keeps" girl.  Logan called it right in the beginning - he said, "You are a 'girlfriend" girl" or whatever - at the wedding.  First dance.  OOOO - i feel SO SAD, Dani thinking now of that scene - i want to cry and KILL SOME WRITERS AND PRODUCERS NOW.

So, LOGAN KNEW - Lorelai knew, and Rory sure had to know - Rory is "in it to win it" - she don't just sleep around with a boy for 3 years - BECUZ. So, um, tell me again what Rory was "waiting for?" Oh, let's see, she didn't get the fellowsh*t, she didn't get ANY OTHER JOBS. Ok, so she cannot now marry Logan because WHY?

Dani257 - if you will believe with me, then i will believe that after this abysmal bleakness of an ending to this otherwise lovely show, Logan and Rory will be together in California - SOON.


FOR THE ENDING. Maybe they will jump far into the future - ala THE OC. That was a great ending, as endings go....  GG may be far into the future you know.

IF THEY HAD ANY GUTS AT ALL. They would have a little flashward, of Rory walking with Logan, PREGS. Yeah - that will be MY IMAGE - what do you say, Dani? Even if you hate me some of the time, do you like my fantasy?  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

ok, i am off to spoilerville...
« Last Edit: May 10, 2007, 05:23:11 am by zeddie » Logged

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« Reply #250 on: May 10, 2007, 05:54:09 am »

i kind of wish we could have seen the ring up close   Embarrassed
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« Reply #251 on: May 10, 2007, 06:03:50 am »

Aww, zeddie, thank you for sharing that with us! I agree with you about so much, I don't know where to start Wink Rory and Logan did have a special connection, although we did not get to really see a 'soulmate' moment...it bothered me how she seemed to get sort of apathetic towards him at the end; she did not value just how special their relationship was. When Paris said, "You're Annette Benning", she was right, and truly, only a soulmate can pin down a playboy like that.Trust me, I caught one of my own Smiley  Rory really should have cherished what they had; I will never really understand why she was willing to lose him. "She didn't want to have to go CA, have her plans decided for her, blah, blah, too young, blah blah"...and it bothered me how unaffected she seemed in the empty apartment afterward; she said "I already miss him", but then moved right on to "oooh, maybe I'll get my own avacado tree- yay!"...

When I was 19, I had to take a semester off from college because 3 of my friends died in a car accident and I just couldn't handle it.... I got a job at a clothing store and worked with this gorgeous guy who flirted with every single girl who walked by, had several casual girlfriends, was confident to the point of being cocky (you get the idea...) Now here I am, a rather plain, rather depressed, on-hold English major who should've totally hated this guy, but as I started talking to him, I saw right through him and knew almost immediately that he was The Man of My Dreams..... 3 weeks later, he asked me out. Even though I saw with my own eyes, and heard all the stories of what a 'player' he was, it didn't phase me, and we had the most amazing time.... He said "I love you" within a month!! People at the store couldn't believe it.....

Anyway, I did go back to college, and he came with me and we moved in together. Unlike Rory, I wasn't able to catch up on my credits effortlessly and graduate on time. But it was ok, because in June 2002, when I should've graduated college, my very own Warren Beatty and I got married instead. It was the best day of my life. He and I have that kind of special connection that you just don't have with anyone else. I knew how young I was when he proposed, and I knew we could've waited to get married, but I just thought... why? I know he's the right person, it's not my fault I was so young when I met him! I wouldn't have done anything differently if we had waited until I was 25 or 27 to have the actual ceremony, I would've still taken the same jobs, we would've still moved to the same crappy apartments. Because, geez, life is really hard, and when you meet someone who wants to share it with you and be your partner along the way, you take their hand and say "Let's go for it!". I'm glad we didn't wait, because now this year, we get to go on a great vacation to celebrate our 5th anniversary!

And thank you again zeddie for reminding me how special soulmates are... lately, my husband has been kind of irratating, and I've just been thinking of him as "ugh, that guy who didn't get up with the baby again"...


*I think Rory might be kind of doomed to repeat her mother's legacy of non-committment... if this opportunity with Logan wasn't good enough...?


OK, i am IN TEARS here for your story. Wow. Yes. That's what i am talking about!  When we were introduced to Logan, the writing was so good around him - we SAW all the Warren Beatty stuff - YES!  See, this IS WHAT LIFE IS ABOUT, KIDDIES.... reread the above and TRY to find your soulmate.... Oh, i LOVE how you knew not to care about the other women - yes... that's right.... forget "logic"

Stupid Rory. But had they been able to have on screen soulmate moments, it would have been imposible for her to reject him and SO idiotic that the earth would shift badly and we would all be very very cold for a long time.... And maybe become extinct.

thank YOU for sharing! Your story is SO MUCH BETTER than mine! I Love You now!

ALSO - THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU for proving my point. A CAREER IS NOT A SOULMATE. Ok, GOOD, and i mean it, you get it, like i get it and i guess i just feel sorry that many people out there will NOT have it - i mean, i had it briefly, but not for life - and that is very sad - but i had it for several years with this person.  I tasted it at the very least. And it is SO not physical, but the physical of course becomes a big part of it - it is very hard to describe, is it not?

Oh, i like - want to know you now.....  i will PM you. 

OK PEOPLE - we are all sad. SO i am gonna try to work up something funny in my FANS OVER 50 (SENIOR) thread. It is like a ghost town over there cuz everyone went out for a walk to the mall and instead ended up senile and wandering in the woods.. I tripple posted - talking to myself over there.

But GO there for my LAST POST - just a JOKE OF THE DAY if you willl........... THANKS. LOVE YOU BABIES  Kiss Kiss Kiss
« Last Edit: May 10, 2007, 07:06:53 am by zeddie » Logged

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« Reply #252 on: May 10, 2007, 07:09:27 am »

I disagree with Dani. (Didn't need a spoiler to call that one, didja?)

Talk about married life before the proposal is just fantasizing. The question has to be asked and answered before any meaningful plan can be set in motion.

And with Rory and Logan, the discussion has to be two-way. He didn't allow her any input in the planning, he just dropped the job, house, and avocado tree at her feet like it was a dragon head or something. And because of his choices, he is completely inflexible (or so it would seem) about his plans.

If Rory had really been ready to pick a place, pick one job for life, and settle down with a bag of tortilla chips, it would be one thing. But, like Lorelai in "The Road Trip to Harvard" she hasn't even gotten started with her big dream, she just graduated.

So if I wanted to fake it all out, not only would Logan have a change of heart (or priorities, anyway,) but Rory would get a job at the NYT after all (since she was first alternate or something and somebody had to back out.)

I actually kind of buy that the writers are taking it out on her character. I've heard of that happening. But she didn't seem all that shallow to me, just like someone who could keep her wits about her while the guy was trying to sweep her away. She's come a long way since she started dating him, and doesn't seem so eager to just deal with whatever comes along to be with him anymore.

What drives me to despair is the blase attitude to Luke and Lorelai. I mean, Dani threatened a pole dance if they don't get back together, people!

Besides, Luke hasn't made his big speech yet. lorelai is still confused and hurt over how she could be so sure while he was still so unwilling to take a chance on her, and I have a feeling the explanation's going to sting a little. It doesn't seem like a flat path to me, I wonder how they're going to pull it off. And I heard LG is partially responsible for the dialog.

I just remembered, I need to buy Kleenex.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2007, 07:13:23 am by lessa » Logged

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« Reply #253 on: May 10, 2007, 07:16:21 am »

Wow. Still can't believe Rory and Logan are gone, broken up, done. We watched the relationship rise, then fall, rise, then fall, rise a lot, and then fall forever. What have these three years been, if they are just going to break it off like this. Rory and Logan have no time now to fix it.

In my opinion it was a horrible break up. Using a proposal to break up. What was he thinking (Dan)? If you really want Rory and Logan to break up, find another way. Using a proposal is just a emotionl break down waiting to happen for us GG fans.

Wow. They're done. What a horrible way to end the greatest show in the world.
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« Reply #254 on: May 10, 2007, 07:24:45 am »

How ironic that we spent most of this season beating the dead horse that is Luke and Lorelai and lamenting (at least I was) how rathing boring Rory and Logan had become: well look at as now folks!

I don't have a ton of time, but zeddie, I will PM you back asap! And yes, I can't believe I was able to ignore the other women either Wink Usually I am not so confident. Robert (my guy) would acted shallow, macho, etc. to the bimbos, and yet in the stock room he and I would have this witty banter, talk about music, and it was like he was a differet person. It was like how Logan challenged Rory when they would have their little debates when they first met- I loved those little scenes between them- there was such an intstant spark- that was special! Oh crap...I lost my point.... I don't think R&L needed to get engaged right now, but damnit I will never understand why they had to break up...

edit-now that i'm back, I found my point- all the spontaneous engagements on this show seemed weird to me also, like its a way to solve a problem or something. I know that we joked about moving in together on our first date and probably started talking about getting engaged after being together for 3 months, so maybe I'm not the right person to chime in, hehe. I even went with Robert and picked out my own ring.

And yes, lessa, the fact that Logan said, "this great house to *rent*" shows that Logan wasn't forcing Rory to go CA forever or anything... and she hadn't even really considered any west coast jobs, what would be so terrible about going there for a few years?
« Last Edit: May 10, 2007, 09:22:40 am by neverapuff » Logged

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