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Author Topic: 7.21 - Unto the Breach  (Read 236734 times)
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rad7462
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« Reply #315 on: May 14, 2007, 09:42:39 am »

Cant wait!!

Help - I was unable to see episode 20 ( Lorelai,Loerlai) - does anyone no where I can find it on line oe on tape?HuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuh?    SDM]
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« Reply #316 on: May 14, 2007, 10:06:28 am »

Neverapuff, I completely agree with you about Rory's feeling for her friends.  I honestly think that some of it is Alexis' acting abiblity.  I"m not trying to be mean here but I've always noticed that when she hugs someone, she always avoids getting her face too close to the other persons and kind of holds her body stiff (except for Jess and Logan.  It doesnt' sound like much when you describe it, but it was definitely an awkward posture whenever she hugs, Emily or Richard or Luke or any of the Stars Hollow Characters (Sookie, Patty, Babette), school friends.

Anyway maybe it was only part real discomfort and part her character.  Maybe she is supposed to be a little aloof from everyone but Lorelai.  Maybe the single self-sufficient mother makes the kids feel less need for outside love, validation, interaction?  Or maybe I'm full of it.  Anyway I still really think that Rory did not give Paris the send off you'd give a stray dog!
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« Reply #317 on: May 14, 2007, 11:31:56 am »

I think the hugging thing is an Alexis thing, not a character thing.  It makes sense when someone hugs her when she's not expecting it or she doesn't see herself as that close to a person.  I recall a couple of Paris hugs where Rory seems to be thinking, "Who are you, and why are you touching me?"  (I do think that Paris sees her friendship with Rory as more important and close than Rory sees it)  But, the stiffness of Rory's hugs with her grandparents make no sense for the character.  One thing that I've picked up is that Richard and Emily are pretty free and easy with their hugs to Rory and they never hug Lorelai.  Even in their most tender moments with her.  And, she never hugs them.  And, the one time she attempted to, Emily balked.  I always took that to be a clever way to show the difference in the relationship Rory has with them and Lorelai has.  Rory is supposed to feel more comfortable around her grandparents than Lorelai, and I would think that would translate into her hugs being more natural, so we could take note of how much easier it is for her to show and receive affection from them.  So, all I can think is, the way Alexis hugs is not how Rory is supposed to be hugging her grandparents.
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« Reply #318 on: May 14, 2007, 01:22:55 pm »

Or maybe she's just too pretty to pull off hesitance. I like to think that she's extremely literal-minded and doesn't really expect emotional behavior the way Lorelai does. Her own feelings catch her off-guard often enough.

I guess that's why I'm so conflicted about Logan suddenly congealing into Married-with-avocado-tree guy. She loved him so much that she never knew what she was going to do or feel or jump off of or argue about with him next, and suddenly she'll never know (for now.) The guy who could do anything and go anywhere just to be with her is gone along with his white ponies and grand gestures, and Rory is stuck with "knowing she loved by the way she behaved."

I get the hug thing between Lorelai, Emily, and Rory as one of the ways Emily visibly favored Rory to make Lorelai jealous or punish her. Lorelai never openly resented it apart from my favorite and only reference featuring the Boob Obsessed Fairy ("Kill Me Now" 1.03) when she got angry at Rory for borrowing a sweater without asking because she couldn't relate to her own parents the way Rory did. We never got any proper closure on how Richard felt about being openly more affectionate to Rory than Lorelai, though. Live, Season 8, Live!
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« Reply #319 on: May 14, 2007, 06:53:22 pm »

Yes, Alexis does seem uncomfortable with hugging! Her Luke hugs are the worst- they're practically comical. Although, when Rory drops out of Yale and she breaks down in front of her grandfather, that hug is very sweet. But that is really the only moment I can think of- her hugs with Emily are also awkward.  And about how much she loved Logan, I guess that's my issue, I don't know if someone so aloof can love so deeply...I hope she did...Huh
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« Reply #320 on: May 14, 2007, 08:11:29 pm »

The more times I watch this episode, the more things I find valuable in it.  My very favorite scene would have to be Lorelai, with an indescribably emotional look on her face, cheering on Rory as she graduates.  Their original dream (except insert Yale for Harvard) has been accomplished.   I love that this is such an important redeeming moment for Lorelai.  When she was 16 and came home and shocked her parents with the news that she was pregnant it must have seemed that nothing positive could be between her and her parents again.  Especially after she ran away a year after Rory was born.

Richard giving her the compliment that she should be proud was, in my opinion, the bond I needed to see between them and I was finally satisfied.  He has been the "hard sell" on Lorelai's choices in her life.  Even more than Emily.  I think Emily was more hurt by Lorelai running away and got over the shame of having had a pregnant teenage a long time ago.  Richard I don't think ever got over that.

As I think of the series ending, I'm very much okay with Lorelai and Emily's current relationship -- have been for most of the end of this season.  Two major things have made me confident they will be okay ... Emily supporting her concerning the divorce in "I am Kayak, Hear me Roar" and Lorelai and Emily being able to joke around at the end of "Gilmore Girls Only" after attending Mia's wedding.

I'm sad Luke wasn't at Rory's graduation.  Oh well!

I thought that this was a nice closure (in regards to the series ending) for Christopher and Lorelai as well.  They clearly care about each other as human beings and are able to express that to each other so that makes their failed romantic relationship more bearable to them.  It is wonderful they were able to come together for Rory.

The L/L conversation was frustrating for me because I'm over them talking around their relationship.  I just want them to get it out already!!!

Ahhhh, Rory and Logan.  So much to say.  However, I think I'll skip most of it and just say their "goodbyes" to each other had no sort of closure for two people who have been so close.  Therefore, me imagining them meeting up in five years and getting back together seems even more feasible in my mind now.  I do like that I can make up my own endings sometimes! 
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« Reply #321 on: May 14, 2007, 09:20:19 pm »

Neverapuff, I completely agree with you about Rory's feeling for her friends.  I honestly think that some of it is Alexis' acting ability. 

  I think you might be onto something there. Smiley
  For some reason, I noticed the hugs, too.  The most genuine-looking Rory hug was when she took a picture with Lane on Lane's wedding day.
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« Reply #322 on: May 15, 2007, 07:37:25 am »

I AM SO SORRY THIS IS SO LONG. Hey i invite only my diehard readers to go forth on this. Deuce. Lessa. Neverapuff... Those with the stomach to read MILES of my crazy words........ Everyone else, PLASE FEEL FREE TO TAKE A BIG PASS around this.

Here, i have built a ROAD.

894 BYPASS....   proceed to THE END NOW.

NOTE - I SAY ALL THIS FULLY BELIEVING THAT JG MAY BE A highly INTELLIGENT PERSON, WITH MANY DEGREES AND ACCOLATES AND ACCOMPLISHMENTS,  MAYBE A PHD, ETC. i in no way think i am "smarter" or "better", etc. I would never think that, it is a bad assumption after all. All i know is, i seem to be blessed with intuition and a way to read the collective consciousness with some degree of accuracy. So, i concentrate on what i have learned, not what someone else has learned - someone i don't know..... Thank you.


Any young girl (or young guy) out there who is applauding Rory - is too young to actualy understand.  I also know young people who got married and are FINE. Life is SO very difficult. Please, if you find a man /a woman to love - don't say, "Oh, but Rory had her career first" - OK?... [snip]

Going off with Logan WAS the thrilling, adventurous, crazy, BOLD spontaneous thing to do! DUH - For Rory to accept and just - GO - that would have been outside her comfort zone - BUT NO, the stupid writers will keep her locked in "unrequited - i need my career - let's look over the next horizon, as long as there are books there" BULLSNOT!

Sorry to disappoint you,  but I'm 52, not a young whippersnapper, and I couldn't disagree with you more. In what universe is marrying a rich guy, moving to a house he's providing for you, and maybe finding a job in the place where he's moving for his job any kind of independent, thrilling, adventurous move? I couldn't think of anything more bourgeoisie if I tried! Saying "I love you and I have pictured being married to you but I want to have some life adventures on my own before I close down all my options" seems a lot more adventurous to me. And I agree with Lorelei: if it was really an "until death do we part" love, then she wouldn't have hesitated when Logan asked her, she would have said Yes and known it was the right thing to do.

Quote
Sorry, little Rory lovers who feel Rory should remain this little girl frozen in time, but I HAVE LIVED ALL THOSE DECADES - i know. I know because i was there already....   I was the free spirit - who looked around one day and realized i had a career and money and lots of things - but no PERSON.  I followed every whim except to find a PERSON - until i was older - when all the good men are married or in their divorces and bitter - I WISH i would have found a man when i was young, but i matured slowly in that department, ok?  I was not even "active" until i was 23 years old. For Rory to develop that far and then - CUT IT OFF? No, that' wrong. Stupid.  Again i say BAD WRITING. Do not let a poorly written show cause you to return a lovely diamond some day when you are 22 and the man of your dreams is before you.

No offense to you or to anyone else who has shared their own stories of love, age of marriage (or not) and so on, but I don't believe there is any way to make a global rule out of one person's experience. The issue should be judged on the character and relationship of the people involved, not some rule that is determined by one person's experience, whether for good or bad. Every person is different and every relationship is different so to say "You should always marry the first guy you fall in love with" or "You should never marry that young" isn't really useful.

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IN WHAT UNIVERSE? I WILL TELL YOU OH 52 YEAR OLD - in GILMORE UNIVERSE. duh. What do you think i am referring to???  This is my overly maudling, overly involved overly ventful response to GILMORE GIRLS, ok?

HEY ALSO- i am quite sure i was not even talking TO YOU, JG. .
Number Two. Why don't you actually understand what i am SAYING? I am talking about RORY AND LOGAN in context of THAT SHOW.  Ok, maybe i spoke a little bit globally - but if you actualy think i am that much of an IDIOT to believe this is the end all be all of statements - well, i cannot comment. This is ONE RESPONSE among all the things i know and believe and so on.  This is VENTING, and FRUSTRATION. This is about GILMORE GIRLS. Of course i do not believe MY ONE AND ONLY LIFE is the handbook for life - DUUUUUHHHHHH.. Who are you?

JG said...
No offense to you or to anyone else who has shared their own stories of love, age of marriage (or not) and so on, but

BTW - when you say "BUT" that indicates that everything you said before it is something you DO NOT BELIEVE, therefore, i know that you found our stories stupid and maudlin or just plain unimportant to you. And i also know that you are not particularly trying to "not offend" me. Just thought you might like to know how language works in this case.  Smiley

Hmm., if i did not quote right i will hve to go back and fix this.......

I WIL TRY AGAIN. Rory is the cautious one who could NOT say "i love you" to Dean. She was worried about it - she was sort of unable to "go for it" with a man.  SOOO, for RORY (not necessarily ANYONE ELSE - are you following finally?) GOING WITH LOGAN would have been HER LEAP OF FAITH.  Getting her job with a political internet thing or whatever is NOT outside her comfort zone. That is all on the ONE NARROW PATH.

In the words of Robert Frost
"Two paths diverged in a wood....

Rory - NOT YOU, not your kid, whatever.  RORY should have taken the LOGAN path.  As for my advice to young kids, i don't really actually think most people will allow a TV show to let them make such a decision (nor will ANYONE take my words to heart! face it, i am talking TO MYSELF at best, duh). ON the other hand, THERE ARE many posts here where people actualy do consider these characters to mirror their own lives.

JG SAID...
No offense to you or to anyone else who has shared their own stories of love, age of marriage (or not) and so on, but I don't believe there is any way to make a global rule out of one person's experience. The issue should be judged on the character and relationship of the people involved, not some rule that is determined by one person's experience, whether for good or bad. Every person is different and every relationship is different so to say "You should always marry the first guy you fall in love with" or "You should never marry that young" isn't really useful.


There i think you have GROSSLY misquoted me and misinterpretted me. Please don't do that, you make it necessary for me to waste my precious time! I never ever said, "You should always marry the first guy you fal in love with" =- ARE YOU HIGH?  i do believe my correct words were MAN OF YOUR DREAMS, which is VERY DIFFERENT - VERY DIFFERENT from "always marry the first guy you fall in love with" - have you not beenin love with "the one"? because i have - and i am 55, and it did NOT come around again. I pulled a RORY. It happens. I know many people who could tell me the same story-

CONVERSELY. I know a couple who met at a wedding - went home together, did it, and got engaged, all in the space of like TWO HOURS. They have one child, and live about ten miles from me. I stood up in the wedding and they have been happily married for TWENTY YEARS plus. So, it DOES HAPPEN like that - and wouldn't SHE have been silly to "be cautious" and 'MISTRUST herself, based on some stupid "women's liberation" crap - passing on this man?  YOu think i am only talking about MYSELF - but i am not of course, i would not do that, i am highly intelligent and i usually prefer to speak from RESEARCH, not just off the top of my head, I have a MASTER'S DEGREE like everyone else, i have learned to do research and find things to back up my statements.

LISTEN, JG - you don't know this but MANY people have been secretly emailing me telling me how they followed their hearts and are HAPPY for it!  Just because it is not "politically correct" to say that maybe it is ok to follow a man, that DOES NOT mean, i am all wrong. I happen to still BELIEVE my statements, IN FACT i am working on a book outline about this topic. Maybe this idea's TIME HAS COME - it worked for OUR GENERATION, didn't it?  There are so many ways to find SELF ACTUALIZATION - you do not have to "give up the rich guy" OH, and WHY do you mention RICH? HUH? I don't care about Logan's wealth like you do, or his house hunting. That is all - IRRELEVANT. This is a SPIRITUAL thing to me.  Yeah, i think you are pressing me on to WRITE THAT BOOK to refute statements such as yours JG.

Ok, well, you challenged me, so i can go as many rounds as necessary. And if i have gone too far, that's ok, the show is ENDING and if i would get kicked off - oh well, Oh. well. I have made my special wonderful friends from this site. So let the ax fall.  IN OMNIA PARATUS!

OOOOOOOOOOOO - I AM IN FINE FORM TODAY  HEHEHEHEHHEEEEEEEEEEEE HAZAAAAH! (sp?)

IF - IF a person is so unimaginative that he or she cannot figure how to combine LOVE and CAREER FULFILMENT - well, then i don't suppose i can talk to that person anyway.....  Hey, i stand up for myself, and if that makes me aggressive, SO WHAT. You gotta problem with that?  Angry  Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
 
ON 'WOMEN'S LIBERATION"

IMHO - that means  IN MY HUMBLE OPINION. I have tried to put IMO OR IMHO on these, and so i am actualy kind of irritated at how JG went after me, but i say again, IMHO AND - and also, from MY RESEARCH and reading and FOLLOWING THIS and watching EVERY STORY i could on this subject, I have the following things to say....

Women's Liberation (begun in 60's and 70's)  had a weird backlash - it caused many women to just across the board reject marriage and /or kids, and go full force into the career life. They somehow believed it was one or the other, and maybe looked down upon sole role of "wife".  Some of these women married later in life and had kids or tried and could not have kids due to old eggs. Still others had kids early but probably secretly cursed the entire situtation.  THEN - something regulated.   The NEW "women's lib" movement was about BEING A WOMAN and ALSO HAVING EQUAL PAY. Oprah did a big show on this.  It was about OLDER WOMEN - AH, LIKE ME- giving SAGE ADVICE to the younger women. AND younger women speaking back and saying, "This is what we reject about YOUR movement" But actually the older women ALREADY KNEW what was wrong with it, as they had the benefit now of 20/20 hindsite! So there was much unity! It was a great show.

the younger women were saying "We don't wanna work so hard, AND we would like a family life ALSO"- so , actually, there is an air of Universality to what we are debating  here.   

When i get on my soap box and say, "Little girls, gather round" - i feel i have a right (an obligation to be honest too) to do that. It is just MY OPINION.  And i am not even talking bout ONE EXPERIENCE, rather all the experiences i have had and those of all the people i have known, and all the research,etc. as i have said.  People don't live in VACUUMS. A person who has lived almost 6 decades has more experiences upon which to draw.  I feel i have to keep explaining this....  Because people think i am some blowhard, and young ones probably are ignoring me anyway, but - MANY PEOPLE are secretly PMing me, egging me ON for MORE STUFF that i should say.  So, i WRITE MORE - because i am being ASKED to write more.

I know what i know.  I KNOW - i KNOW, i don't "guess" that my girlfriends spend some time lamenting that their careers have left them flat. AND MORE TIME probably lamenting that they had no romance in their lives.  I do not know EVEN ONE single woman who has no significant other who is calling me up and saying, "Wow, i am  SO GLAD i just stayed on this career path and left my soulmate in the dust - i just bought a new car! I mean, how bout that! Screw love, cars RULE." No, i don't know even one woman talking that way. 

I am also not a fan of "hooking up" or "friends with benefits" and that is MY OPINION and being challenged has given me MORE FUEL to speak my mind - YOU HAVE FED ME to say even MORE HAHAHAHAHA!

Well, nobody KNOWS me on this forum, all they know is what i say.  But i know me. I know just how many people seek me out for counsel and advice and help. I know who i am - and i know that life without love is no life at all. That is what I KNOW. And that has nothing to do with 'marrying young" - that is IRRELEVANT. what is relevant is DON'T SHUT THE DOOR ON LOVE based on some VAGUE "WOMEN'S LIB CRAP" in your head.

CHECK IT OUT - "If a man follows a woman he knows is "the one" he is celebrated as liberal and evolved, blah blah - BUT - let a woman do the same and there is suspicion of her being week or SELLING OUT = i ask you WHY - WHY- WHY - is not the LOVE the same? Are not both genders serving the SAME DEEP LOVE? Then WHY does it matter who goes to California? Oh, what would have happened if it was LOGAN who said no? HUH? Think about is, all of you who want to throw stones at me.

Search your hearts and ask yourselves, "What if Rory had the job and Logan was not prepared and then they broke up?" Would we have said, "Stupid Logan, he should have swallowed his male pride and gone for it!"  Ok, be honest now. It is my assumption, since i have to make one for sake of argument - my ASSUMPTION that if Logan has said, "No, i am sorry, things are not settled with me" we would have thrown things at HIM - not Rory, believing Rory to be the RIGHTEOUS ONE. But, since Rory was the unsettled one, WE (some of us) APPLAUD HER BREAKING UP THE "GREAT LOVE" of two soulmates - WHY - why do we do this? (Not me, i think she was wrong)

I wanted EQUALITY - that means, whoever found the great job FIRST gets to say "Let's move here now and get married"  OH, i am also NOT a fan of shacking up indefinitely.  For me, that is like going to church and not praying.  It just is. Think about it. I very much loved that Logan had an integrity about him to the end. Maybe - maybe Rory does not deserve Logan.

I have made it a priority in my life to SEEK GOD - if i do nothing else of note, i will talk to God. So, i have that to be thankful for. I can never say "i am a loser" or "life does not matter without (fill in the blank)"  because God is here, all around me. Sometimes in such amazing ways....

But as i watched Gilmore Girls, i just felt such FALSENESS in Rory's scripting if Rory were BRAVE. But maybe that is the point, maybe Rory is NOT BRAVE. For Logan i felt truth, THAT i understood. I wanted Rory to take THE ROAD LESS TRAVELED - for her.  For her. as Robert Frost says,

"And that has made all the difference"  Although it is believe he did NOT mean "it was better down that road" - he actualy meant, he chose one, and YES it made a difference, BUT he only knows that becuase the other road was DIFFERENT - not necessarily better. In either road, you don't know the ending.  If i find my Robert Frost book i will elaborate.......

Well, i WANTED RORY to PICK THAT ROAD LESS TRAVELED. The one where the young graduate with stars in her eyes and Christiana A. in her mind who can ONLY think of career....choses the OTHER ROAD. The Logan adventure.  Logan "gets it" - he gets it. Rory does NOT. End of story.

JG if you stil don't see what i am getting at, well, then, i can't spend even more time on this, i went way overboard already. We will never see eye to eye so i guess i just wasted a lot of time anyway on this. And IMO you would never "concede" anyway, this is only a game now, after all this. So, i will forget you and just pretend i am THINKING TO MYSELF and if anyone wants to eavesdrop - HERE IT IS - my rollercoaster mind whirling about.... And to repeat, this is not "universal" - this IS me basing all this on the SCRIPTS and what happened for THOSE TWO CHARACTERS. If i knew two young people in this same situation, i WOULD take Rory aside and say, "Rory, what are you afraid of? Did you NEVER see yourself married to Logan (she did)" I would talk to her to get to the bottom of it and i would NOT - NOT just say, "Oh well, men are like streetcars, there will be another one, and hey, you will know that car when you see it...Ok, DINNER!" as Lorelai hastily did. I would have more interest than that.

I REPEAT: To have Rory REJECT Logan and stay stuck in "i am a famous journalist - forevermore" kept her stuck in her little childhood dream. Think about it - think about it. But to move her to California B*LLS TO THE WALL- WFO - now THAT's entertainment!  I am MUCH MORE interested to see that story evolve, rather than her DOING THE SAME D*MN THING SHE DID FOR SEVEN SEASONS - BOOORINNNG.

OH, GREAT STORY! One day at work, at lunch, two men sat at my table. Just the three of us. I knew them both, liked them both. "Jack" was lamenting things going weird with this woman he was into.  Well, i overheard and finally i said, "Ok, ok, you men have this all wrong - allow me to explain this..." I proceeded to explain the woman to the man, and told him how to proceed. I then bought his a book "Mars and Venus on a Date" which i think is so far THE BEST book about serious dating out there (John Gray)  Well, before i got hold of this guy, he was about to give up and move one. After our conversation and a few more sessions, things turned around. I saw him in the hall way, and he was all smiles and he told me he was ENGAGED. I was the SECOND person he told.  I attended the beautiful wedding, and now they have a precious baby.  OH, they are YOUNG ish - in their 20's. She is i think a little younger. And yeah, there was trepidation. But i was actually able to make them see that SOMETIMES there is no great wisdom about your "age" and so on.   Sometimes, YOU TAKE A RISK becasue you are able to see the WONDERFUL POSSIBLITIES. And THAT is also ADVENTURE and GROWTH and AS GOOD AS a career ANY DAY - IN - MY - HUMBLE - MASTER'S - OPINION. HA!

Well, if you put a nickel in me, i am very efficient!  Oh and i am stil older than JG.   This is FUN.

I truly hope this is my LAST POST of any substance. I just don't think i can do this in the future. Time to - move on....


THE END.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2007, 09:14:58 am by zeddie » Logged

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« Reply #323 on: May 15, 2007, 11:10:15 am »

I don't think Rory choosing a career over love is the big controversy. The Road Not Taken is having both, waiting until she's done nurturing herself before she begins to nurture Logan and finally nurtures a next generation. She isn't ready to get married, the canon is the canon, and we have to take her word for the fact that having her options wide open is something she wants or needs for herself.

The controversy, I think, is Logan choosing his career over Rory, choosing his stability over Rory, and choosing his avenue for redemption after his gaffe with HBI over Rory. They could have been engaged, or just stayed committed to one another, but it wasn't good enough, he wanted her by his side.

Well, Logan, the deal is, if you want to be by her side, you put yourself there. Rory doesn't need to be standing next to him to love him and trust him, nor does she need to hold his hand while she's reading her rejection letters. If she did, she would have put herself in Palo Alto next to him. He needs her presence to make it work, not the other way around, and he was given a simple choice (as Rory was so many times.) Either keep up or give up.

They aren't one flesh yet, so spare me the "whoever finds a job first is the primary breadwinner whose career must be followed." They haven't thrown their lots in together, just said they loved one another. She doesn't even know what her lot is yet, and she shouldn't be expected to turn it over to her lifemate so soon after finishing all the work to get to that point in life.  What options she exercises with her life is important, and choosing it for herself is way more important than falling into the sheltered arms of someone whom, while he loves her very much, considers her a factor instead of an equal.

I get that Logan likes to figure everything out himself and then turn over his results to the person he's trying to convince. That lack of desire to make status and interim reports is an established part of his character. McMasters-Bujold would love this guy. That habit would make a great provider of him, but I get that Rory is more of an I-need-to-be-consulted kind of a girl. Besides, we know that she doesn't like mooching off Logan, with or without his blessing.

So here's the thing, he might just be doing it for Lorelai. Maybe the house and the stability and the inflexible plans are his way of trying to be a dependable guy per Lorelai's anxiety about him, and he misjudged the impact of the gesture on Rory. After all, Lorelai always did like the guys who treated Rory well more than Rory did. If I'm right, there's still plenty of time for him to throw it all out and go back to being a bad influence if it's the only way they can be together... in New York!
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« Reply #324 on: May 15, 2007, 11:16:05 am »

    
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In what universe is marrying a rich guy, moving to a house he's providing for you, and maybe finding a job in the place where he's moving for his job any kind of independent, thrilling, adventurous move? I couldn't think of anything more bourgeoisie if I tried!

   I don't know exactly how I feel about the whole thing (my experience as a journalist-turned-SAHM has been that you can have it all, but not all at once).   But this part above is absolutely true.  Well said.   Smiley
   
« Last Edit: May 15, 2007, 02:15:28 pm by ChocolatGilmore » Logged


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« Reply #325 on: May 15, 2007, 11:58:43 am »

What gets me is they don't count DVR viewings! I watch at broadcast time, I skip commercials the old fashioned way, by going to the bathroom or the kitchen. But I love cotton and kind of like Maybelline, and I'll never drive a car that weighs more than a pickup truck. Does that answer your question, Neilsen!?
That's actually false now.  As of mid-December, Nielsen began to also count what the viewing audience records on their DVRs.
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« Reply #326 on: May 15, 2007, 01:57:10 pm »

Note - i did not say that quote somewhere above about "rich guy" - i would not reduce Logan to "rich guy" - sorry. That just got mangled up because i quoted it from - JB if i said that right, No. JG? Sorry.  BUT - i think there are parts to the quote that are ok. My problem was, this person who wrote it was trying to attribute some stupidity to me that i NEVER SAID quite that way.  It was a MISINTERPRETATION of my meaning.  I do not like that very much, when a person does not take the time to READ and at least address what is actually being said. One of my pet peaves.

SO, the little quote above should NOT read Zeddie - i just wanted to be fair on that.

You know what? We all have our BIASES - no one on this forum speaks the absolute truth or the best possible answer, blah blah, even those who try to "police" the others speak from their own prejudices and own experiences or what they read or whatever. Therefore this is like 99% BS from all of us.  Cheesy

Lessa i disagree with you about the Logan chosing issue... later on.....

Lessa - i have to revert back to something i said earlier.  My argument works ONLY if Logan is her soulmate - if he is "the one" - if he is NOT "the one" then i have nothing to say; Rory should have split two years ago after she figured out he was not "the one", rather than waste Logan's time.

AND I DON'T THINK LOGAN CHOSE HIS CAREER OVER RORY - lessa.  I think that was COINCIDENCE.  I think LOGAN thought "We WILL work all of this out - let's just DO THIS, RIGHT NOW - let's TAKE THE PLUNGE and not worry so much about NEXT YEAR - we wanna be together IT IS TIME FOR THE NEXT STEP. And he was RIGHT, after three friggin years? I would have to hear his speech AGAIN, but i think he saw Rory graduating and thought - "Gee, what are we waiting for, here is an opportunity where Rory is free from school, AND she did not get the fellowship - I THINK THIS IS A SIGN"  Hey i have had a few romances peter out after 3 years because NOBODY WOULD MAKE THE NEXT MOVE. One day you are just looking at each other like the end of that one SEINFELD - like "Ok, well... see ya....". You are left with this LIMP FEELING IN YOUR HEART. I know for sure, there are like TWO MEN i could have married, had one of us spoken up and said, "I love you and would like to marry you" but no, we just were too scared or proud or whatever.  No, this Logan thing was NOT a  thing five years in the planning = this was LOGAN BEING EMOTIONAL as maybe he never was before this. Forget "choosing" - this was an affair of THE HEART, not a PRO/CON LIST. Am i the only person who believes this then? OH, I FORGOT - IN MY OPINION.

But if you do NOT think Logan was Rory's soulmate, then i am just saying NOTHING to you in particular.


IN ALL FAIRNESS . I also have a friend who travels all over the world, as a broadcast journalist. And she is not with anyone, i don't think, unless she hides this fact - she lives in London. BUT - that was her bag - ok? She did not find some guy and move in with him and gush and say "I love you Logan" as if she was open and then say "Oh, sorry, i want to be Christiana Amanpour, with my little Baby Voice here, so - naw, screw you , dork you will only slow me down." My friend stayed a loner - which i happen to think is the more honorable thing to do. IN MY OPINION.

IN MY OPINION. IN MY OPINION. IN MY OPINION. 
I still believe all signs pointed to engagement. A LONG ENGAGEMENT! Some of us have pointed that out = WHY didn't Rory just say YES and then qualify it later with "I NEED a longish engagement, Logan" Did she ever TRY - NO. Ok then, maybe she does not love him.

But GEE WHIZ the show is ending. So we don't get to meet the man Rory will marry?  That sucks, IN MY OPINION. 

Ok, say, why is is FINE that Doyle wants to follow Paris around - but Rory can't follow Logan around? Are we back down to the that old song?

"O - Hard is the fortune of all womankind
She's always controlled, she's always confined
Controlled by her parents, til she is a wife
A slave to her husband, for the rest of her life"


Is that the hidden song running in some of the minds in Forumville? I am just asking!

And here is another POINT - If she was "not ready" pray tell, WHAT would make her ready?  When she is the third female President of the United States? When she replaces  Christiana A. (sp?)  Or maybe when she gets her PhD?  WHAT - WHAT is the "right time" for a career person?  WILL SOMEONE TELL ME?" And if you say, "When it feels right" I will throw something at you... And also if you think she is TOO YOUNG, then we do disagree on the age thing and cannot debate that.

Just BECAUSE i messed up MY CHANCES that does not mean that 30 years later we cannot come up with better solutions. In my opinion.  As i said before, i do not think you just throw over a SOULMATE based on CAREER - i think you SHOOT FOR BOTH - and you either get divorced when you become CEO in London OR, you quit when you get demoted and pregnant - AH! OPTIONS!


Oh, ye of LITTLE FAITH. Just because half of us FAILED and messed up = that does not mean it is NOT POSSIBLE. There are people on this forum who feel they pretty much have it all - as much as they can. Believe it. We who failed, maybe we needed to do more, be smarter, speak up, have COURAGE, be more creative - take your pick.  In the future marriage and great career will be OLD HAT and NO PROBLEM becuase we will have solved not only all the logistics but also all the mental crap that holds us back.

I REFUSE TO LIVE IN A WORLD where i have to choose MY SOULMATE OR A JOB. Duh. QUADDUH.  I called it a "job" becasue HALF THE TIME Career ends up being nothing but a fancy name for going to work every day. Sorry, but that can be the sad outcome. You can find GREAT HAPPINESS in a job that is not perfect, OR, you can be miserable in a job people would kill you for!  So, even if Rory was waiting for everything to "settled" - define "settled" for me. WHAT DOES THAT MEAN unless it is code for 'I am not feeling it, Logan, i don't love you that much"  AHH = maybe that's it - they are not soulmates. Ok, my work here is done.

And if you are the type to launch your own business and so on where you KNOW you will never have time for a husband for like 15 years, then  WHAT ARE YOU DOING LEADING A GUY ON FOR THREE YEARS? Rory is NOT STUPID - she knew Logan was going to ask her to marry him one day. She KNEW. So she played him, as far as i can see.

Oh, what-  Logan should say, "Oh, ok, honey - what do you need then - another year, two years? five? Sure, Rory - take ALL THE TIME you need" What does that prove or do? NOTHING. Today, tomorrow..........

If you recall, Rory's answer to Logan when he posed some of these questions was NOTHING of an answer at all. She just dribbled on herself. No clue. No definitive anything.  So, then i should conclude that Rory is nothing but a little Tartolette who shacks up with rich guys in fine apartments and who is secretly so selfish that she just breaks a fine man's heart on a whim, with NO GOOD ANSWER. Great - she IS LORELAI isn't she!

Well, as you can see, i can spin this story anyway i want to - Lessa, while you are always thoughtful, articulate, well rehearsed, etc - you still have done nothing to change my opinions, so i respectfully turn from this argument now - as in, i don't think there is any hope in me getting my viewpoint across, since NO ONE is backing me up, except for a few people who PM me.  i can't keep flapping my gums - this is my precious time and i have RAPED my precious time allll day long now. Wow, i feel ike - INSANE after all this. TIME OUT. i gotta Stop. won't debate anymore because we won't move each other's needle.

I pretty much am writing all day long because i have proclaimed this GILMORE GIRLS DAY- a day of infamy.  I plan to stop after this. I cannot keep this up - it is wasteful for all of us........

OH, Sex and the City did it RIGHT - when Adin wanted to go to Vegas and marry Carrie - she said, NO (though she had the ring on) and Aidin looked at her and said, "If you don't wanna marry me RIGHT NOW, you won't ever wanna marry me"  I BELIEVE IN THAT STATEMENT, IN MY OPINION.

And again i say i disagree with Lessa, i don't think this is about Logan chosing a career. NO NO NO. Logan - only walked away because HE FELT REJECTED down to his very core. That was NOT him chosing his career - that was a broken hearted man realizing "This woman does not love me as i love her, and she never will" - Logan was hardly contemplating his career at that moment.  I think Matt the actor really played that scene well. I believe him, and i could read his inner thoughts. Very well done.

Um, oh yeah,  IN MY OPINION, AND IN MY OPINION.

GOOD BYE CRUEL WORLD.


PART TWO - I wrote this insane thing AL OUT OF ORDER.
Why Logan had all those plans.  My theory on that is twofold. Yes, for Lorelai's benefit, due to the past grief - he wanted all the questions answered.  Yes, i think he overstepped it, HOWEVER i also think he had a little "plan" - and it backfired. I think, maybe the writers wanted me to see Logan as that guy who is sweetening the pot, precisely because he knows just how much he is asking. YES, my goodness Logan knew he was going out on a limb (he was shaking on it)- he knows Rory - better than most people. He is smart, intuititve, he picks up on stuff - he is with Rory step for step in the Intellect Dept. whereas maybe some other admirers were not there.

[uMARRIAGE NEED NOT BE A DEATH SENTENCE TO YOUR OTHER DREAMS [/u]- if that is what we seem to be saying, then forget it.

I think this old paradigm  "marriage means i can't have freedom" is OUTDATED - just very outdate for me.

One of my conclusions is that Logan was indeed trying to do a salesjob that failed.  Seeing him as pushy or controlling is, IMHO, being unfair to Logan.

I WILL POST THIS AND THEN I A LITTLE WHILE COME BACK AND BLOW HALF OF IT AWAY - IT IS JUST TOO LONG and i don't think i deserve this much space. So, don't worry THIS WILL DISAPPEAR. I just copy it and keep it for myself.  Smiley

BETTER EXPLANATION OF WHAT I MEAN - maybe.


Logan got a job in California. He did not want to leave Rory. Hmm. (Logan's inner thoughts) "What to do. I know! I am gonna ask Rory to be my wife at some point anyway, and i don't wanna leave her, and i wanna make an honest woman of her and (DING) - OH MY GOD, Rory is THE ONE - she's IT - i love her and she is MY SOULMATE! And the time is NOW - it's a sign. (HALLELUJIA!) Ok, i am gonna propse at her graduation party! Wow this is great - scary but great!"

Proposes, gets NO ANSWER.  Sweats the entire time until she cuts him down in parking lot. Meaning, Logan was already very dejected, but gave it one last try to SAVE HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH RORY. Because a definitive NO means this: It means, Rory is quite willing to LOSE LOGAN FOREVER. Yes, folks, that IS what it means. THINK "DEAL OR NO DEAL!" HA! Does that ring a bell in your head?

ONCE A MAN ASKS TO MARRY YOU, IF YOU SAY "NO" - THE REASON DOES NOT MATTER. YOU SAID NO. and that MEANS HE CAN SAY, "Oh, ok - NO then. Bye" and he can walk away and never ask you again. Therefore, if you say NO that means you are OK WITH NEVER MARRYING THAT MAN. See how it works?  Everyone is talking about her career and is she too young - well that is not how it went down, she just FUMBLED and NEVER said, YES - she did not say "YES, IF WE CAN WAIT A WHILE" or "YES, but if i get a dream career you must be willing to relocate." SHE - SAID - NO.  Got it?

This was not just some little thing, he did not ask her to PROM for frick sake, he asked her to MARRY HIM.

Cut to GRADUATION.

RORY: "Oh um, i cannot marry you, the answer is no."
LOGAN: "Huh?" (o no, she does not want me..... i am crushed)  But, haven't you ever wanted to marry me, wasn't this where it was going some day (whatever he said, i was busy crapping my pants)
RORY: Ah, well maybe... but you know, i just don't like the color blue anymore... 
LOGAN:    Huh But, you can work ANYWHERE - In California at one of the fine papers!"
RORY: Hmm, no, i would rather - wait for something else - i have no idea WHAT - but - you know, maybe i will run into Christiana Amanpour in the diner, and Lord knows if i leave right now with you that will NEVER HAPPEN - ever - my life will be OVER.
LOGAN: (Ok, well, i am so stunned, i see you fading away from me. YOu are drifting back to a dot on the horizon. And i do not even know you.  I cannot kiss you because - you are but a phantom now.  Where was i going?  I don't know anything, except, YOU HAVE REJECTED ME BECAUSE YOU DON'T LOVE ME, AND I LOVE YOU. Ok wow. I have to walk off now...) "Goodbye Rory. "

This was not about Logan choosing his career, i say again.

Bye.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2007, 02:43:55 pm by zeddie » Logged

Lorelai: Please Luke, please please please.
Luke: How many cups have you had this morning?
Lorelai: None.
Luke: Plus--
Lorelai: Five.  But yours is better.

"Liberté, égalité, fraternité, ou la mort!"
IN OMNIA PARATUS
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« Reply #327 on: May 15, 2007, 03:52:31 pm »

HEY = LET'S ALL WATCH THE PILOT LIKE RIGHT BEFORE THE LAST ONE! I am gonna do that NOW - i hve my DVDs out. Well, how bout it? We could all do this sort of TOGETHER - full circle! Ok, maybe think about it, LOVE YOU ALL SO MUCH.    Kiss

I am probably gonna leave this forum for a while, so i just double posted - i broke a rule, and i am sorry but that other one was so long.

Hey, i just wanted to say that on YouTube i saw some nice tributes to Rory and Logan. I was looking for the breakup speach which i have not found

CAN ANYONE LINK ME TO THE BREAKUP SPEECH PLEASE? THANKS! if you can, i would be grateful.

Anyway.  You know, i can understand people feeling Rory is too young and all that, and even thinking Logan "did too much" with the avocado tree and all.  Ok, i can consider those things.

And then there is the matter of me, the viewer being happy.  I think i see MORE people unhappy about the breakup - i think that is what i counted. So I still have to ask, why did the writers/producers have to make me SOOO unhappy at the very end of the season.

CHECK THIS OUT - they could have had Rory get a great job in California too! IN the Same city! WHY NOT? Why can't my favorite show act on my "suspension of disbelief" just this one time, and give me my happy ending.  Why?  Is there a LAW? No.  There is no law.  Rory and Logan COULD HAVE found work in the same town and decided to get married - Rory could have been ready (if only she could learn to talk like an adult anyway)

All this analysis - me the WORST of all of us. And yet, all i wanted was a little Hollywood Magic - just give me a little magic AFTER i have been FAITHFULLY watching, delivering my eyeballs to the sponsors for seven years - can't you reward me with a wedding?  I mean, is that asking SOO MUCH?

Sorry for double posting, but i wanted to say the header separately.

My last four words i want....

"I WILL marry Logan."  No just kidding. How about
"I'm a Gilmore Girl." that says it all.......  Cheesy  Cry
« Last Edit: May 15, 2007, 03:54:17 pm by zeddie » Logged

Lorelai: Please Luke, please please please.
Luke: How many cups have you had this morning?
Lorelai: None.
Luke: Plus--
Lorelai: Five.  But yours is better.

"Liberté, égalité, fraternité, ou la mort!"
IN OMNIA PARATUS
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« Reply #328 on: May 15, 2007, 04:40:26 pm »

Yeah... watching the first episode is a good idea. It will give us a contrast of the characters then and now.

BTW http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kciK4u6SgqU&mode=related&search= here is the last part of the episode which includes the breakup speech.

I am just really sad about how everything ended up the last episode. I thought that going all or nothing was pretty immature by Logan. I mean, there are so many couples that went back and forth. I think that if he really loved her, he could have waited. But can I just say it, "WHAT AN ASSHOLE!!!!"  He should have been way more understanding. I mean come on!!! She's what like 22? Younger than all the people I know who are married. By several years.
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Lorelai: Luke.. will you marry me?
Luke: What?
Lorelai: Luke... will you.
Luke: Yes
Lorelai: Well you don't have to answer so
Luke: Yes
Lorelai: Well you can take a minute to
Luke: No
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« Reply #329 on: May 15, 2007, 04:42:14 pm »

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I get that Logan likes to figure everything out himself and then turn over his results to the person he's trying to convince. That lack of desire to make status and interim reports is an established part of his character. McMasters-Bujold would love this guy. That habit would make a great provider of him, but I get that Rory is more of an I-need-to-be-consulted kind of a girl. Besides, we know that she doesn't like mooching off Logan, with or without his blessing.

Can you give some examples?  Any that directly involve their relationship?  I don't think Rory needed to be consulted on what Logan did when he decided to go ahead and buy the internet company (or whatever lead to the business failure) just like I don't think Rory needed to discuss with Logan what classes she registered for in her senior year.  The only thing that I can recall Logan did that would relate to them as a couple without consulting Rory in the process was this last episode, with the whole house, the proposal without any discussion beforehand.  And, one episode late (and late is an understatement) doesn't count to me as an established pattern.  So, are there incidents I'm forgetting?

I also don't think Rory would have been mooching off of him.  At least, the way he described it, he was picturing them as both having careers within the marriage.  They would have been contributing to their lives together, neither one mooching off the other.



I also have to say, although I have no plans on getting married, just in case something happens (never say never) I truly hope the entire universe doesn't believe that if you can't say yes the very first time someone asks you, that means the relationship is doomed.  That a no must automatically be interpreted as "I don't love you, I never loved you that much"  Since it's so easy to get things misconstrued here, I'll say that these are my words.  In fact, unless the words are encased in the nifty purple background, anything I say are my words only.  Obviously, I'm referring to other posts, but I'm not trying to imply that I'm directly quoting anyone or trying to misquote anyone.  Got it?  Anyway, now that that is possibly straight, I couldn't guarantee that the minute someone, even someone I'm deeply in love with, proposes to me, I'll know beyond a shadow of a doubt, without questioning or reservation that I'll be able to say yes right away.  I don't particularly agree with Rory's reasons (although I do think there are legitimate reasons for why marriage at this time wouldn't have worked -and I still think Logan would not have proposed if it wasn't a quick and easy way to break them up and make the break up stick) which were very vague, but still think sometimes there are good reasons to hold off on a marriage, and the relationship can still hold strong and a couple can get married later.  And, I'm sure Logan is glad that at least one woman didn't feel like unless you can say "I love you" when she does, it means that you won't ever love her.  And, I'll say right now, stubborn or not, my views are set in stone.  I won't believe differently. 

I still think the end of things was out of character for Logan.  At the very least, even if he had ended up walking away just the same, the Logan I know would have at least argued more.  After their first break up, he's always been very tenacious, even against seemingly impossible odds (your girlfriend believing you cheated on her with multiple women is a pretty big hurdle, and he tackled that).  And, I really need to know why his behavior is in character for Logan.  No generalities, no "this is how men act" or "this is how someone of Logan's upbringing or cultural status would behave" but specific to Logan, based on prior episodes that helped establish his character.


Setting aside my shipper disappointment, one of my problems is that it happened so late.  I was a Rory/Dean shipper.  I hated when they broke up at the time(s) but it was okay.  And, not because he was her high school boyfriend and I didn't expect that she would stay with one guy from high school until the end of days, although I didn't expect that.  But, because the show didn't end on that note.  There was time to get used to it to focus on other stories.  Okay, it would have been better if they didn't keep trotting Dean out to show how much he still was a slave to the charms of Rory, but even that stopped sometime in season 5, and it left two seasons to fade away the image of a break up.  You can't have a happy ending with a break up.  I never liked Rory and Jess together, but if the show had ended at Rory's Chilton graduation (where Rory said goodbye to Jess over the phone) or even an episode after, that would have been a sad ending.  Maybe that supposed "bittersweet" one that Ausiello had the nerve to call this.  I do not think that word means what he thinks it means.  But, it couldn't have been happy.  Taking away my feelings about the pair, Rory couldn't have ended the show happy, or excited, or content at that time.  It took time to get there.  They didn't give the R/L relationship the necessary time to heal from a break up.  They should have done one of two things.  Either break them up much earlier (while Logan was in London would have been an ample time) or accepted that, no matter how they originally assumed Rory's story was going to end when they started, the story developed in a different direction.   And, I don't buy that they didn't know the show would end with a break up.  They said that tonight's episode could serve as either a season or series finale.  So, they knew the possibility was there that anything they wrote in these last episodes was going to stick.  And, I can't buy that they were going to stick their heads in the sand like ostriches, and say, "We'll break them up now and bring them back together in the eighth season.  Because we are getting another season!  We are!  We are!  I can't hear you!  Na-na-na!  I won't listen to the faintest hint that it might not happen."  Too many signs pointed to the possibility that no matter what, it could end. 

But, maybe just contradicting everything I said, even if they had come back, I don't think Logan would have been there.  What I saw was pretty much not only slamming the door shut on the relationship, but having a big dragon swallow the door and then dive into the ocean, never to be seen again.  (I don't know why I'm getting all descriptive here)  If nothing else, I think they gave Lorelai the words that we were supposed to take to heart.  Rory wouldn't hesitate with the right guy.  She'd have no qualms.  She did with Logan, Logan's not the right guy, he never will be.  I disagree, naturally.  Heck, I have qualms and hesitate deciding if I really do want to eat a brownie, even when I'm already headed into the kitchen to grab one. And, I have no doubt that I love brownies.  I would think, even though yes some people don't need to think and are happy and everything words great, that qualms in the decision of getting married are natural for some people and doesn't define the seriousness of your relationship forevermore.  Er, my point, is, regardless of all that, laying aside all debates from the factions of the audience, Lorelai, speaking for the writer of the episode, who was ultimately speaking for David Rosenthal was telling the audience that Logan isn't the guy.  Case closed, end of story.
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