7.21 - Unto the Breach

[royalschick2910]

I completely respect Logans decision to give Rory the all or nothing speech. Rory wanted to take a step back and do the whole long distance relationship thing again and he doesn't want to have to go through with that.

There is plenty for Rory todo in San Francisco and if she was so willing to just let him go like that then she wasn't all in it.

Terrible end to 3 seasons of their relationship

[purpleflippers]

How is it that him asking her to come with him is self centered but her refusing to do so for her own benefit is not?  Maybe it’s that it’s okay for her to be self centered because she’s Rory and doesn’t have to comply with the standards of decency that the rest of the characters do?  I don’t quite get that.  Now, if Rory had pulled a 180 and said he was not the one for her, then that argument would stand because she would be giving up imaginary options for a man she didn’t love.  But she didn’t, she repeated multiple times that she loved him (and did fantasize about marrying him one day) just not enough to sacrifice, imaginary or not, or give of herself completely.  If that’s not selfish I don’t know what is. 

Lets not forget, that Rory didn't say, "I don't want to be with you anymore, go away!"  She said she wasn't ready to be engaged, and she didn't want to pack up and move to California.  She ask Logan to do a long Distance relationship, which she did for him when he had just graduated and went to London to work.  But Logan was not interested in that, he wanted her to fit him into her plans, despite the fact that he told her  an episode or 2 before that he would factor her in any plans he made......which makes me think, how long was this planned for, he told Rory to go for the New York Times thing in hay bale maze, what would he have done had she gotten it???

Anyway my point is, Rory didn't end there relationship because she didn't get her way, Logan ended it because he didn't get his......that is selfish.....

[laurla205]

I’m going to quote you because I have specific (I’ll admit it, some are smart *** but not meant to be offending) comments in reply and I don’t want them to get lost in seas of my paragraphs (which I will again try to keep to a minimum for everyone’s sanity). 

Poor statistical mean, don't mathematicians know Rory is special?

Setting aside for a moment my theory that it isn't over till it's over, I have to say, I can't understand all this backchat about how marrying Logan wouldn't make a difference to her career. He got a house and an avocado tree because she likes the guac (eww) and never once considered that she'd say no. He proposed at a party during a toast to her achievement, for crying out loud. Did he really think she wouldn't say no just because everyone was watching?

Does anyone really think that he proposed in the manner he did to force a yes from her?  I think exactly the opposite, that he chose to do it in a public setting because he was so sure that her feelings (and didn’t consider no as a viable possibility) for him were the same as his for her and those feelings would result in a yes.  I don’t at all think he set out to force a yes by creating a spectacle.  This is grand gesture Logan we’re talking about.  How does marrying him change her career plans again?  I’ve been looking for that answer all day. 

Agreed, guac yuk, even the real stuff in Mexico isn’t good either (according to my tastes anyway).

Spinsters, I know having someone to keep you warm at night is important, but, with no other guys in the picture, she said she wasn't ready. He said that if she still wasn't ready, he wasn't going to stick around and wait for her to get ready. Helloooo, Christopher/Lorelai.

Reducing Logan to a body to keep her warm?!  I can’t speak for anyone else but I hope I didn’t imply that anywhere.  Christopher/Loreali or Lorelai to Luke ala Partings?  I guess they both work but I definitely compare Logan’s ultimatum to Lorelai’s. 

It would be one thing if the words “I’m not ready to get married” came out of Rory’s mouth.  But they didn’t.  Instead it was “I can’t” and “I like having my options wide open”.  She didn’t ask him to wait longer for her answer until she figured things out, it didn’t appear to be an option to either of them.  She asked if they could try a long distance relationship.  A long distance relationship is a far cry from a long engagement.  There was no ‘yes but’ here.  There was simply a no in too many words.

Besides, the way he planned their life together, it was pretty obvious his job was the key element of his proposal. Would have he held onto the ring if he hadn't gotten a job but she had? I don't doubt Logan's readiness, now that he is secure and anxious to start the building phase, but Rory is still homeless, jobless, and uncertain of her choices. Marrying Logan could save her from all that, but she just doesn't want to be saved.

So I posit that, like Luke, even if she isn't ready to marry now, she may be someday, and Logan is a moron for walking away when she failed to meet his domestic fantasy. Like Christopher, who walked away when Lorelai wouldn't let him get a job and take care of her, he will regret it, and always wonder what could have been if she weren't the girl he fell in love with.

Yeah, I feel for Rory, an offer like that doesn't come along every day. But he wanted her to settle down and adapt to his career and live in his house with a joint avocado tree. And he broke up with her when she wouldn't. It's a 180 from his promise to factor her and not make her factor him, and, frankly, I just don't see it sticking.

I can’t say I don’t agree with this.  I’m just as befuddled about the complete turnaround from wanting to factor her in (which I interpreted to mean, at the least, him making his decisions based upon her decisions).  I won’t try and rationalize it because there is no rational behind it other than R/L needed to break up.  I wouldn’t take it to a L/C comparison here either because R/L weren’t high school loves with a child and so much history.  On the surface maybe, but not when you look beneath it and all the other *stuff* between Lorelai and Christopher. 

And if they do get back together next week, lessa I fully expect to see a big old ‘I told you so” typed somewhere in that episode thread once I’m done staring at my screen waiting for the “syke”.

I disagree. I think Paris's dialog in that scene was one of the finale's axles. And I should point out that Doyle and Zach have turned out to be the kind of guys we thought Logan was going to be. Lane is doing the long-distance thing with her husband as she procreates, and Doyle is following Paris around the world to watch her hone and recreate.

Plus, Paris delivered the episode title, traditionally bastardized from the original. The episode would not have flown with anyone else.

P.S. If Logan is really sure, why can't he wait? Most of the married people I know (whether bonded young or old) just married the person they were dating when they were ready. True love? I'd say about sixty percent, but only one divorce in the lot. If Logan is serious about spending his life with her, he'll put that in front of marking her third-left finger and just trust her to know when it's the right time for her.

I don’t have any complaints about Paris or her role in this episode either. 

Doyle didn’t propose and Logan did.  That’s a huge step and different from just saying you’ll follow someone.  But I agree P/D have it right, L/Z too for that matter.  Where both parties are making changes and supporting one another. 

I agree Logan would do so IF Rory gave him any indication there might be a yes off in the future somewhere.  She hinted at it, said she thought of it but in the end she only liked the “idea” of being married to him and not actually putting it into motion.  If she had come right out and said that it was still a possibility and still something she liked the idea of he might have had a different reaction.  But all or nothing just doesn’t sound quite right coming from him regardless of Rory’s mistakes (well, mistakes imo) and that’s part of the problem. 

I still think the whole thing from proposal to rejection was contrived.  I don't think Logan would have proposed at that time if they didn't want it to be a way to break them up.  And, he probably would have been looking for jobs in various areas that would put him in the vicinity of Rory.  Again, because he told her to plan for herself and let him take care of the relationship stuff.  But, that's a moot point because it didn't come down to a choice of location.  You're idea laurla, of neither one being willing to let the other give up the jobs they got to be with the other would have made more sense.  But, they eliminated that by making Rory not have that reason either.  She wasn't choosing a job over Logan.  Even if people would think it was a bad reason, it would have been more concrete than "things are wide open"  I know I just wrote a massive paragraph questioning, but again, wide open how??  In what manner?

Heh, they threw reason out the window with this one, speccing was almost useless because I could never have imagined this being the only reason.  I mean, we knew it was so she could be independent.  But to want to be independent just for the sake of independence (which really isn’t being independent when you take into consideration that the Lorelai and Rory relationship is more co-dependent then most romantic relationships on the show, most certainly more than R/L) and having options that aren’t really options (because there aren’t any options in front of her right now!).  Wait.  Now I’m confusing myself.  Maybe that’s the trick. 

The thread was moving warp speed when I started this post.  It’ll pick up. 

Oh boy fleet, it'll have to be a different post because this is way too long.  But my last paragraph is close to a response to that even though it wasn't intended that way.

[purpleflippers]

.......I only hope that if they were to get back together, he learned his lesson!!!  L

I only hope that if they were to get back together, she learned her lesson.

They shared the blame equally.

I don't think it was equal, Lorelei put a lot into there relationship, especially once they got engaged, When April came into his life, i can understand him wanting to get to know her before Lorelei got involved (although keeping it from her wasn't so good), but once he had spent time with April and things were going well, Luke still kept Lorelei at a distance (i'm not talking about involving her with april) just in general....He thought iut was ok to give her times she could and couldn't come to the diner, and after the conversation they had on Valentine's Day, he knew she wanted to get married, and still, he just let it go......

Did Lorelei handle thing badly, yes, absolutly, she gets some of the balme, however, Luke takes the majority for the way he treated her for months!

[Dani257]

If Logan is neither a liar or someone who arbitrarily changes his mind on a whim without factoring in the other person (and I don't think he is) in character if Rory had a great offer from a job not in San Fransisco, he would have adjusted his plans to try and find a job somewhere else and an equivalent to the avocado tree.  He might have even been willing to try long distance for some concrete reason.  Okay, stopping that portion of my post before I get carried away again.

d grief settling in, but I don't think that Graham or Bledel had it particularly hard.  Some of you might disagree with me but comparing their 14 hour days to those who put in longer hours doing manual labor is nothing at all.  Plus they get the comfort of having a hiatus, air conditioned sets and trailers. Not to mention a salary that well compensates their work.   I know and work with people whose jobs are much more demanding.  Some of these people have no other option but to work these sorts of hours possibly for the rest of their lives.  I make no bones about working a comfy job.  I feel for the people who work for me.  I have a position at a greenhouse where I get to sit in an office with regular breaks and air conditioning.  The people who work outside do so without the luxury of having a seat, without being told that they need to work from sun up to sun down.  I guess the term "hard work" is all relative, but I personally know people who do much more difficult things.  I would never say to these people who work at my greenhouse "I'm tired, it's been a long day" because I know they have it worse, ten-fold.

So to hear that the past 7 years have been grueling has to be put into perspective.  It's not that I dislike either lead, but I wish they would recognize this when making such statements.

How do you know they don't have it in perspective?  Did they say their jobs are harder than anyone else's?  If I slam my finger in the door I'm going to scream.  It doesn't mean I have no sense of people who get shot.  Yeah, that's worse.  Doesn't make my finger throb any less.  I don't think only people who have it worse than others get griping rights.  And, I don't even think they were griping.  Weren't they just saying specifically why they were ready to stop?  I would say to someone that I'm tired and it's been a long day.  I've had long days.  I've never worked manual labor, but I've worked long days and been tired.  I would not tell someone in a more difficult job that I've had it worse than them.

And, I've never understood when someone says they're ready to leave a job and they do because they have that option, someone responds by pointing out the people who don't have the option of leaving a job they don't like.  How is that relevant?  Yeah, it's sad that some people have to work at jobs they would rather not do.  Does that mean someone who does have the option shouldn't go out of solidarity? 

Sure, acting isn't the worst or even one of the worst jobs.  You're in the upper level of actors (meaning the ones who are recognized by the public) and yeah, you have perks that most of us can only dream about.  In many ways it's easier than tons of jobs (I also don't think manual labor is the trump card of hard work.   I think an office job can be very grueling in it's own way).  Doesn't mean it's not also hard.  I could never act, and not just because of the talent issue.  I would find memorizing all that dialogue, getting on all those marks too hard.   But, also, from the little I've gathered, Lauren isn't denying the good of the job.  Just that the positives at this point don't exceed the negatives.  I  could speculate that Alexis feels the same way, but I'm not sure.  (Not sure about Lauren, but I feel more comfortable speculating there)  And, I feel it's great that she's at a place where she can make a decision based on that.  It's a shame that we all can't (okay, I have but it was on a much smaller scale).  But, I don't think the fact that we can't should be a factor in whether they can or should.

[conradv]

.......I only hope that if they were to get back together, he learned his lesson!!!  L

I only hope that if they were to get back together, she learned her lesson.

They shared the blame equally.

I don't think it was equal, Lorelei put a lot into there relationship, especially once they got engaged, When April came into his life, i can understand him wanting to get to know her before Lorelei got involved (although keeping it from her wasn't so good), but once he had spent time with April and things were going well, Luke still kept Lorelei at a distance (i'm not talking about involving her with april) just in general....He thought iut was ok to give her times she could and couldn't come to the diner, and after the conversation they had on Valentine's Day, he knew she wanted to get married, and still, he just let it go......

Did Lorelei handle thing badly, yes, absolutly, she gets some of the balme, however, Luke takes the majority for the way he treated her for months!

How about Lorelai lying to Luke to his face about spending the night drinking with Chistopher?  There were things that she did wrong as well as Luke.


Anyway, this thread is probably not the best to debate this topic, and it's been debated to death anyway.

[purpleflippers]

.......I only hope that if they were to get back together, he learned his lesson!!!  L

I only hope that if they were to get back together, she learned her lesson.

They shared the blame equally.

I don't think it was equal, Lorelei put a lot into there relationship, especially once they got engaged, When April came into his life, i can understand him wanting to get to know her before Lorelei got involved (although keeping it from her wasn't so good), but once he had spent time with April and things were going well, Luke still kept Lorelei at a distance (i'm not talking about involving her with april) just in general....He thought iut was ok to give her times she could and couldn't come to the diner, and after the conversation they had on Valentine's Day, he knew she wanted to get married, and still, he just let it go......

Did Lorelei handle thing badly, yes, absolutly, she gets some of the balme, however, Luke takes the majority for the way he treated her for months!

How about Lorelai lying to Luke to his face about spending the night drinking with Chistopher?  There were things that she did wrong as well as Luke.


Anyway, this thread is probably not the best to debate this topic, and it's been debated to death anyway.

I agree, this topic has been debated to death, just one last thought, though,the christopher/drinking incident was a while before, Luke and Lorelei had discussed that (when they had a good relationship) along with the phone call christopher made to her, Luke forgave her, and she promised she would talk to him about things, as a matter of fact, he said they couldn't have secrets if this thinng was going to work, she said she agreed, and they made up......a few scenes later, Luke found out he had a daughter, and spent the next few months Lying to Lorelei...When you tell someone you forgive them, you move forward, not backward.  Also, I made a point of mentioning that Luke keeping April a secret wasn't what i was talking about.

[zeddie]

I don't think I can express how mad I am about Rory not accepting Logan's proposal.  The writers just messed up the whole Gilmore Girls show!  It was enough when they ruined Lorelei and Christopher's marriage, now this!!!  No one is ending up with whom I wanted and it is just a mess!! 

I am pissed!  Why I take this so personally, I do not know but I do and it just sucks.  I would have said yes to Logan.  What a hottie, good guy, just perfect!

Oh Rory, what have you done!

Yes, i am also falling short of expression, even though i have showed my anger.  Ok. DEUCE - excellent analysis - did you take a sedative to write with such steadiness (i could not, i was too ticked off) - had i been calm enuf i might have phrased thing just as you did.

I have to repeat something i have said a lot. The WAS a TV show, ok?  Therefore, we the viewers (the lifeblood of the thing, really, ok?)  had EVERY RIGHT to expect certain things. I cannot do anything about those who wanted Jess instead of Logan - but let us consider the Logan supporters. Gosh Dang it, we had a right to assume that Rory would (maybe with some trepidation) accept the proposal, on condition of them working thru some issues; Something Like - "Yes, Logan, i will marry you - if you agree to a longish engagement, so that we both know we each have careers and also what we want out of marriage.  Things are a little unsettled for me. So, yes, i will gladly wear your ring, and now just give me enough time to feel good about ALL of it - not just you wanting to marry me. Is that fair?"

THAT is how i would have written it - something like that.....  And i LOVE avocados.    That was so SWEET of Logan.    No, i cannot be dissuaded - this was a plain old writing FUBAR.  I felt so bad for Logan and i thought Matt really evoked my empathy.    I only wish i could ever have come that close to marrying such an adorable man.  See, the show is SUPPOSED to let me (and others) live vicariously.  Yes, we all know that marriages end, that marriage and career is had to mesh - but need it be shoved in our faces also on our favorite show? NO.

Ggirlfan, i have sympathy of course for what happened to you, regarding the career thing (am i quoting the right person?) Yes. of course, things do go wrong. But I remember going to Rome - and running thru the frenetic streets at 1am - just loving all of it, and then i got a twinge, and i said out loud "This is wrong, i should be sharing this with someone" - i wasn't dating, but i even thought of a good friend of mine - a married man who happened to be a friend and i thought, "I wish at least that so'n'so was here - i will never be able to describe this moment to him - or anyone...."

Choosing career over a man that YOU LOVE AND WHO IS PROBABLY YOUR SOULMATE, AFTER ALL (remember that factoid) is just idiotic BECAUSE - your career will let you down, most of the time. I mean, unless you plan to be the first woman to climb mount everest backwards or on your hands or something and you need your entire life to practice, then your career is NOT going to be more fulfiling that real love and marriage to your "perfect man" - it just isn't, ok? I have been down ALL of these roads already. I did the bit where i was crazy into my career - and i got f-ed over for it. I just don't have kids, but other than that - i did the bit where i loved someone who didn't love me, i also married a man who was not very committed, and i let THE ONE - THE ONE slip away from me.  So i have done all of it. I know from experience, not just from talking about it.

People are challenging my statements, and i would be glad to repond, but we are sort of overwhelming the posts right now, so i am not sure if i wil be able to cover al of this.  I see something about Rory doing the LD thing in London - PURPLEFLIPPERS Sorry, but i do NOT agree that this is the same thing for so many REASONS: Today, the relationship has matured, moved forward, etc. AND Logan was being pushed by his Dad to do the London thing - that was a temporary thing, and it also came at a time when the relationship was stil growing - Logan needed that separation to feel the full extent of his love for Rory - totally different - completely different now. NOW, Logan knows and so does Rory - that this is (should have been) for keeps - they got past all the "kid stuff" - into adulthood, the relationship TURNED A CORNER. I don't know how to explain this if a person has NOT experienced this in life.  But many of you have experienced this. There is this thing that happens - one day you both realize you are deeply commited to one another, deeply in love - there are these moments of "soul mate" feelings. You just "know" - and i felt that i did see that in Rory and Logan! I SAW IT and then i was ROBBED by some stupid writer. Maybe the writers are all non-sexual beings who don't love anyone.  Yeah, maybe that's it - some fluke of nature must explain this for me  since logic CANNOT. So, no, Rory and the LD with London - NOT the same thing. WHY AGAIN? Because today, that same arrangement WOULD be going backwards - Logan is exactly right! Been there, done that.  They were separated and it sucked - therefore, there is NO POINT in going back to such a "sophmoric" arrangement once again. It is a waste of good adult emotions to do that.  Plain and simple.

[Dani257]

I can’t say I don’t agree with this.  I’m just as befuddled about the complete turnaround from wanting to factor her in (which I interpreted to mean, at the least, him making his decisions based upon her decisions). 

I'm more angry than befuddled.  The writers didn't care about character integrity.  I mean the writers' integrity, not Logan's.  Very very few people in this world are 100% honest all the time about everything (I said that no one is, but got corrected in that before).  So, I won't say Logan has never lied, but lying is not one of his basic character flaws.  He's been presented as a overall honest person. By making him take an about face, they made him either a liar or someone whose willingness to compromise be restricted to only if it goes his way.  It would have been better if they never had the factor in conversation.  There was no point to that conversation (what, a false sense of security for shippers?  A cool way to keep people from guessing?  Not necessary and a cheap trick).  This episode could have played out in the exact miserable way even if Hay, Bale, Maze had never happened.  But, at least it wouldn't have led to "what happened to Logan saying he was going to factor her in?"  Although, I think at least in a small way, he was trying to factor her in.  He did research jobs for her.  And, the funny thing is, one of those papers was a paper Rory had applied to work at.  It's ridiculous.  The least they could have done to make some sense would be to have Logan find a job in Louisiana or something.  Somewhere she never considered working.  I do think he should have consulted her before making plans -a relationship is a partnership- but his plans were in line with things Rory had considered. 

I'm of the gloomy and pessimistic opinion that the writers meant the break up to stick.  They weren't looking at this as a cliffhanger or getting them back together if there was another season.  (I could be wrong, but that's how I read t).  Going by that reasoning, I wonder if the writers thought when they had Rory list the Chronicle as one of her choices and then have Logan get a job right in that vicinity.  Not that there wouldn't be issues, but at least if you're going to break a couple up, don't make it easy to knock down the reasons.  Put a little effort into it.  It's like they wanted every reason why they don't need to break up, but they do anyway.  Leaving aside grand issues of love and marriage, I still feel it was shoddy writing.  Not just for the outcome but the way the outcome came about.

[royalschick2910]

Way to say it Zeddie!

Logan was making the more mature decision...you can't tell me Rory had no clue it would never work out.

[purpleflippers]

I am pissed!  Why I take this so personally, I do not know but I do and it just sucks. 

You've got it right there!!!

That is why we are all debating what should have happened, what did happen, and what will happen........We all take this show personally....

I think that is what makes this show great, we feel sorry for them, we get mad at them, we feel pride and sorrow, and hope. That is why the CW and WB should be ashamed that they are leaving us with a "searies/season" finale. We deserve closure, or should i say proper closure, and that can't happen in two episode!

[Devilina07]

If Logan is neither a liar or someone who arbitrarily changes his mind on a whim without factoring in the other person (and I don't think he is) in character if Rory had a great offer from a job not in San Fransisco, he would have adjusted his plans to try and find a job somewhere else and an equivalent to the avocado tree.  He might have even been willing to try long distance for some concrete reason.  Okay, stopping that portion of my post before I get carried away again.

d grief settling in, but I don't think that Graham or Bledel had it particularly hard.  Some of you might disagree with me but comparing their 14 hour days to those who put in longer hours doing manual labor is nothing at all.  Plus they get the comfort of having a hiatus, air conditioned sets and trailers. Not to mention a salary that well compensates their work.   I know and work with people whose jobs are much more demanding.  Some of these people have no other option but to work these sorts of hours possibly for the rest of their lives.  I make no bones about working a comfy job.  I feel for the people who work for me.  I have a position at a greenhouse where I get to sit in an office with regular breaks and air conditioning.  The people who work outside do so without the luxury of having a seat, without being told that they need to work from sun up to sun down.  I guess the term "hard work" is all relative, but I personally know people who do much more difficult things.  I would never say to these people who work at my greenhouse "I'm tired, it's been a long day" because I know they have it worse, ten-fold.

So to hear that the past 7 years have been grueling has to be put into perspective.  It's not that I dislike either lead, but I wish they would recognize this when making such statements.

How do you know they don't have it in perspective?  Did they say their jobs are harder than anyone else's?  If I slam my finger in the door I'm going to scream.  It doesn't mean I have no sense of people who get shot.  Yeah, that's worse.  Doesn't make my finger throb any less.  I don't think only people who have it worse than others get griping rights.  And, I don't even think they were griping.  Weren't they just saying specifically why they were ready to stop?  I would say to someone that I'm tired and it's been a long day.  I've had long days.  I've never worked manual labor, but I've worked long days and been tired.  I would not tell someone in a more difficult job that I've had it worse than them.

And, I've never understood when someone says they're ready to leave a job and they do because they have that option, someone responds by pointing out the people who don't have the option of leaving a job they don't like.  How is that relevant?  Yeah, it's sad that some people have to work at jobs they would rather not do.  Does that mean someone who does have the option shouldn't go out of solidarity? 

Sure, acting isn't the worst or even one of the worst jobs.  You're in the upper level of actors (meaning the ones who are recognized by the public) and yeah, you have perks that most of us can only dream about.  In many ways it's easier than tons of jobs (I also don't think manual labor is the trump card of hard work.   I think an office job can be very grueling in it's own way).  Doesn't mean it's not also hard.  I could never act, and not just because of the talent issue.  I would find memorizing all that dialogue, getting on all those marks too hard.   But, also, from the little I've gathered, Lauren isn't denying the good of the job.  Just that the positives at this point don't exceed the negatives.  I  could speculate that Alexis feels the same way, but I'm not sure.  (Not sure about Lauren, but I feel more comfortable speculating there)  And, I feel it's great that she's at a place where she can make a decision based on that.  It's a shame that we all can't (okay, I have but it was on a much smaller scale).  But, I don't think the fact that we can't should be a factor in whether they can or should.

I'm going to have to disagree with you.  As someone who does care about worker's rights and has seen the effects that certain work can have on the body, I'd say that those who perform manual labor have a heavier toll on their body as well as not being compensated for their work.  At the end of the day, someone who has a tough day at an office job just doesn't compare.

And perhaps you didn't read my original post well enough and you should have a second look.  My problem with Graham's comments (and mind you, I already said that many people will disagre with me and this is my personal opinion) stem from the fact that the perspective I am talking about doesn't come into play.  Yes her job was demanding but considerably less demanding than many, many other people.  She can leave her role on 'Gilmore Girls' and I won't object but this grueling schedule that she mentions only lasted a few weeks a year.  In reading your response I don't think you are seeing or connecting the points I am making. I never said that I don't want Graham to leave her job because it isn't hard enough.   From the sound of your post it sounds as though you disagree that manual labor is not taxing.  Is that really the point you want to make?  I certainly hope not.

I'm sorry, what does your finger have to do with anything?  Physical pain such as being shot and stubbing your toe or what have you is different from what I am speaking about.  Your example seems highly irrelevant to the subject I was discussing.

Anyway, those are my thoughts.  Bless them for their work and keeping me entertained for all these years whether or not they think their jobs were hard or not.

[lifesSHORTtalkFAST]

O my goodness, i cryed.
The lorelai and luke, Bad Timing, so sad.
Rory and Logan, sorta happy shes not "tied down" to him.  However its sad to see the series end with her alone.
A week from 2day ill be in morning.
November 5,2000-May 15,2007

[zeddie]

I can’t say I don’t agree with this.  I’m just as befuddled about the complete turnaround from wanting to factor her in (which I interpreted to mean, at the least, him making his decisions based upon her decisions). 

I'm more angry than befuddled.  The writers didn't care about character integrity.  I mean the writers' integrity, not Logan's.  Very very few people in this world are 100% honest all the time about everything (I said that no one is, but got corrected in that before).  So, I won't say Logan has never lied, but lying is not one of his basic character flaws.  He's been presented as a overall honest person. By making him take an about face, they made him either a liar or someone whose willingness to compromise be restricted to only if it goes his way.  It would have been better if they never had the factor in conversation.  There was no point to that conversation (what, a false sense of security for shippers?  A cool way to keep people from guessing?  Not necessary and a cheap trick).  This episode could have played out in the exact miserable way even if Hay, Bale, Maze had never happened.  But, at least it wouldn't have led to "what happened to Logan saying he was going to factor her in?"  Although, I think at least in a small way, he was trying to factor her in.  He did research jobs for her.  And, the funny thing is, one of those papers was a paper Rory had applied to work at.  It's ridiculous.  The least they could have done to make some sense would be to have Logan find a job in Louisiana or something.  Somewhere she never considered working.  I do think he should have consulted her before making plans -a relationship is a partnership- but his plans were in line with things Rory had considered. 

I'm of the gloomy and pessimistic opinion that the writers meant the break up to stick.  They weren't looking at this as a cliffhanger or getting them back together if there was another season.  (I could be wrong, but that's how I read t).  Going by that reasoning, I wonder if the writers thought when they had Rory list the Chronicle as one of her choices and then have Logan get a job right in that vicinity.  Not that there wouldn't be issues, but at least if you're going to break a couple up, don't make it easy to knock down the reasons.  Put a little effort into it.  It's like they wanted every reason why they don't need to break up, but they do anyway.  Leaving aside grand issues of love and marriage, I still feel it was shoddy writing.  Not just for the outcome but the way the outcome came about.

Ok, we are onto something here.  Check it out. I was walking and thinking on this (much to my dismay) and here is what i figure... Consider something like a really fine movie where the lovers are unable to be together.  When the plot takes such a twist, it is necessary (in a well written thing) to have a very compelling reason WHY - the one lover cannot marry the man because it will mean she has to give up her kid - (for some reason, whatever) or the Man cannot be with her because to do so means his father will - die - for some weird reason. Or an entire villiage will be burned - WHATEVER. OH- take the classic one - the Prince cannot marry the commoner because it will rip the country apart - or start a war... These are BIG HEAVY REASONS why the lovers must split up.  And ah, i think it is extremely safe to say, that the lame*ss writers of Gilmore Girls had NO good reasons to split up this couple of Rory and Logan. Therefore, we are NOT able to understand, or to resonate with the outcome! All we can say is "What the f--- - What the Flying Wallendas was that? At least us adults who have some perspective due to our age, we would say that - the kids might say, "good, she is too young" but that might be becuase the 15 year olds ARE too young, and they are doing too much projecting. I have to put adults and children in two distinct classes on this one, and i hope that does not offend - but i mean, it is what it is. Some people are still fourteen.

Ok BAD REASONS / STUPID REASONS for Rory to refuse Logan

* I don't know what my next job will be (oh, big whoop - so, what you are saying is, you lack direction and could work ANYWHERE at this point)
* I don't really love you (sorry, rory, you have professed love too many times, and stuck by him.... you were primed to marry him)
* I don't wanna leave my mommy (bad reason - it is exactly WHY Rory needs to leave - she is brainwashed let's say overly swayed then, by Lorelai and following some of her BAD examples.)
* Avocado trees frighten me.....
* Some of the kids still hope Jess will come back

GOOD REASONS to refuse Logan:
* I don't really love you
* I DO have a new career move and i just accepted a 2 year stint in Africa.
* I have discovered that i am in fact a lesbian -(Hey, it is hard to find good reasons, please cut me some slack - i am actually seroius, this one would work...)
* I found out you cheated again
* You said you would factor me in, now you ask me to leave this brand new position in Africa!? (Oh, that's right, she HAS NO JOB)

I agree that Logan DID FACTOR HER! This is why there are no "movie" reasons for her to say no, ok?  Logan did take a job where Rory could see herself working! He made sure there were OPTIONS for Rory.

PLUS - and this is big, and i apologize i am not sure who else said this or not.... LOGAN ACTED ON INSTINCT AND PASSION - some things are not 100% planned all the time. We are glossing over the fact that just because you SAY "I will factor you in" that does not mean everything goes exactly according to plan! Logan did not PLAN on the big blowup with his internet deal! Also, he did not PLAN to move so far away.  It just - happened. And then, he acted ON PASSION AND INSTINCT to say, "Maybe this is a sign, maybe it is TIME for me to just put it all out there - past "bad script lines" be damned - i WILL pop the question!"

One of the things i love about Logan is his fearlessness - and he doesn't always makes a bunch of LISTS (gag Rory's lists at this point, ok?) he has the ability to ACT on FAITH and PASSION - apparently Rory will learn this the hard way - sadly - by letting THE ONE get away.

DEUCE thanks for backing me up by explaining that endless love does not grow on trees, only on episodic television.

WHAT ABOUT DIVORCE? So what - let them TRY and if divorce happens, oh well.  There is NO WAY to guard against divorce, and one again i hate to be the bearer of the bad news. It takes TWO people to avoid divorce, and sometimes that other person gives up or lies about their level of commitment -

Well, this brings me back to my point - there was NO GOOD REASON for this refusal of a marriage proposal. 

I am just writing LONG posts now because i not only feel very strongly about all of this, i also feel that i have studied enuf about business, marketing, broadcast television and movies to make intelligent analysis of all of this.   This is way long, so in another post somewhere i will discuss.

THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN A MOVIE AND AN EPISODIC TELEVISION SERIES.  For another time then....

The posts are really good about this topic... As for Lorelai and Luke, yeah, i have my thoughts on that - but like i said earlier, it is just too old news for me now - the writers botched that one - too much time passage - i don't care anymore, haven't cared for a while. L/L together again - big whoop - whatever. It is NOT the same - the thrill is GONE. When a relationship just hangs and hangs out there - eventually, the momentum is gone

ANALOGY.  Take one of those metal tape measures and stretch it out - it will stay straight for quite a while, right?  But eventually all the wait and time it took to stretch it out - creates too much stress on it, and it deflates and falls and bends - it passes the apex and can no longer hold itself up. A relationshiop is LIKE THAT!

But hey - what about that POOR MAN who had that boat he lived on and then it burned! Oh man, i was SOBBING for that poor man! I am too empathetic, actually, to watch  a lot of TV, esp. when the eppy SUCKS FARTS and ends badly.

[willowsprite]

I can’t say I don’t agree with this.  I’m just as befuddled about the complete turnaround from wanting to factor her in (which I interpreted to mean, at the least, him making his decisions based upon her decisions). 

I'm more angry than befuddled.  The writers didn't care about character integrity.  I mean the writers' integrity, not Logan's.  Very very few people in this world are 100% honest all the time about everything (I said that no one is, but got corrected in that before).  So, I won't say Logan has never lied, but lying is not one of his basic character flaws. 

Yeah, the whole turn of events is strange. As far as I can remember, R/L had never talked about marriage, although I remember Richard and Emily and Logan's parents thinking/worrying about it.  I felt for Logan, up there pouring out his heart.  But was it in line with his character to suddenly decide to get married, and that it had to be now?  Most people give off a few hints, even when they lived together it was more of --you need a place to stay, you're welcome to stay here -- instead of a real desire to build a shared space. And I never got any hints that Rory was falling out of love with him, or uncertain of her feelings.  Her ability to refuse him within 24 hours didn't really seem like Rory to me.  She agonized over the job in Providence about as long. Anyway, I agree that it was done for expediency, to either end the series with Rory heading out into the world independent or so in case of season 8 there could be more drama ?new guy(s)? for Rory.