7.12 - To Whom It May Concern

[jayde]

The point about Lorelai sleeping with Chris to put a concrete end to the relationship was actually brought up a lot earlier this season, though I cannot remember who exactly mentioned it first. Whoever it was, credit to where it is due

I'm looking forward to tomorrow's episode. I'm curious to see how Chris is depicted and just how much spin the preview had (hate previews... but can't help but watch them). It's going to be for some good conversation tomorrow night!

[Alexandria]

Did I miss a significant scene? The scene where Chris apparently dictated to Lorelai that she could not go to Luke's Diner or see Luke?

No but Christopher clearly implies it by his actions. Whenever he sees or hears about Luke he tenses up and sends off the vibe that he's not ok with him.

But Lorelai also tenses up at the mention of Luke, as did Sookie when she brought the coffee and muffin tops over. They all tensed at the mention of anything related to Luke. But isn't that natural? How easily does anyone talk with their new boyfriend/girlfriend or husband or wife about their ex fiancee?

That doesn't mean that Christopher ever dictated, implied or otherwise, that Lorelai couldn't see Luke or go to the diner.

And how does that explain when Lorelai went to see April when she was in the hospital with appendicitis? He even purposely asked how Luke and April were when Lorelai got back from the hospital.

[lsufan]

I'm relatively new here and I wasn't as active earlier in the season. I'm wondering if the discussion is ever Lorelai/Christopher negative without Luke being brought into it.

You see, for me, if Lorelai and Luke never get back together, if they had never gotten together, if Luke didn't exist, whatever ... I still don't like Christopher - just as himself or with Lorelai.

Must dislike of Christopher be directly linked to liking Luke or can those two opinions be independent of one another? Leaving Luke completely out of the story - I'll pretend that he is married and has moved out of SH...

Chris and Lorelai may share a background and a history, but that does not convince me that he understands her any better than anyone else. Christopher hasn't been around for most of her decisions. He is never the strong one in the relationship. He is not the dependable one (I'm not comparing him to Luke here, but rather to Lorelai). Christopher's knowing Lorelai's background and understanding her does not mean that he is good for her.

[kworx82]

Chris and Lorelai may share a background and a history, but that does not convince me that he understands her any better than anyone else. Christopher hasn't been around for most of her decisions. He is never the strong one in the relationship. He is not the dependable one (I'm not comparing him to Luke here, but rather to Lorelai). Christopher's knowing Lorelai's background and understanding her does not mean that he is good for her.

Why don't you like him, Im just curious.. I have found him @ best to be selfish and immature, and at worst a lous and scoundrel..
he wants what he wants when he wants it, and anything that deviates from this sketch is delt with by drowning himself in bourbon, and stomping his feet like a toddler.. He has never been a good father 2 Rory, and has constantly disaapointed her, and shown her that he can not be trusted.. He wisked her mother away to Paris, and without even consulating her, much less abiding by Loralie's request to have her be there promptly married her in some 1/2 assed ceramony.. i dunno, maybe im being to harsh on the guy.. but if he wants a real relationship with the mother of his child, then he should first and foremost, be considerate to his child!!!

[lessa]

Love is so much bigger than in love ...

First, let preface this by saying I think people use the word Love too freely today. People say it to people they just met and about everything else.

With that said there is a difference between Love, and being In Love. You can love your parents, sibblings, family, friends, and pets, but your not In Love (hopefully) with any of them. When your In Love with someone, it's different, your different, you see things differently. When your In Love with someone your heart skips a beat when that person is around you, you look into their eyes, and you see the future, and when you hold them you feel that nothing could be wrong, ven when everything is. When you first meet someone, sure that infatuation, or lust is very strong, and eventually fades some, but your still In Love, those feelings are still there.

If you drop the word lust, you have described my feelings for my children. I am not "in love" with them, but there are everything to me. Lust can occur with people you don't even know, let alone love, but the example of misuse of the word that bugs me is when a woman claims that she "loves but is not in love" with a fellow who doesn't bubble her hormones as an excuse for saying no. Such reasoning is all backwards to my way of thinking, and it seems logical that these women do not really love their rejects.

Of course, I'm thinking of someone specifically, so I can't hold it true everywhere the line is used. It's just my opinion.

I think it was just the fact that he was hit by one thing after the other in short time. First he went to the wedding, where Emily and Richard made him feel oh so welcomed. Then Lorelai tells him real fast about the night she spent drinking with Christopher, and that she lied about it to him, just before Christopher walks up to them. Then Christopher follows them around and is making open passes towards Lorelai, and bringing up their past, and throwing the fact that he and Lorelai have that romantic history in Luke's face. Then when Luke reacts like the Dad he is to Rory, Christopher tells him he is Rory's father and Luke is nothing but someone who is with Lorelai now. Then he adds that the reason why he was invited to the wedding was because Emily said he wasn't too late to be with Lorelai. Luke needed sometime alone to recover from all of that, but Lorelaididn't give him that time, and before he could recover she pressured him for an answer, and he just ended it.

So Luke has to deal with Christopher and Emily in order to be with Lorelai. Breaking up with her because he thought her situation was too intense is forgiveable, but she never did or said anything at the wedding to actually betray him, just inconvenience him. Her heart was pure (read: conscience was clean) enough so that when he ran away she ran after him. And tracked him down like a hound through the streets of Stars Hollow to find out how he was feeling.

Don't get me wrong, I can appreciate that Luke broke up with her over the way he felt instead of the way he thought she felt. Less she could do about it, but at least it's a sane reason to walk away, and almost exactly the same reason she walked away from him in partings: The way he ran his life was too much for her.

It took so much before Luke walked out, but all it took for Christopher to walk out was Lorelai's letter endorsing Luke as a father.

He really has no choice, but to live in Stars Hollow. Lorelai doesn't want to leave her house. He knows how much she loves Luke still, so he probably see her wanting to stay in Stars Hollow as her way of being around Luke, when it's really everything.

Well, Christopher is a little touchy. Lorelai is so deep and complicated now that he can't really read her mind like he used to. And for all he hasn't mentioned it, I can't help wondering if Sherry is in his mind somewhere. After all, she was the one who got him to straighten up and fly right, and married him when she became pregnant. And she, of all people, would not be able to judge him for the mistakes he made with Rory, or compare him to someone she needed more.
It's possible, having been married to someone who changed his life already, Christopher has imprinted in that respect, and turned to Lorelai to console himself when his contribution as a father to GiGi was not enough to make Sherry stay.

It's not so much what she does, but how she looks at him. She longs for him, and you can see it when she looks at Luke. No matter what the letter said, Christopher would have been mad, because she had contact with Luke. Look how he reacted when she was holding Doula, and when he found out the coffee that Sookie brought over was from Luke's.

But her actions have been the "right" ones, and her feelings when she looks at Luke look like painful gastrointestinal distress. If anything, she longs to stop thinking of him and her relevant regrets. I don't think having Christopher shove them in her face is going to help her forget.

[ella]

 Well I was going to avoid this thread, but there were too many good points being posted, so I had to speak up.

I was thinking of something else.  All this agreement about L/L being made for each other, etc. Sure - i am on board with that, of course.  HOWEVER.  There has been plenty of deceit, fighting, misunderstanding, pouting, powerplaying, mistrust, manipulation, meanness, YOU NAME IT - in the L/L relationship.  PLUS - Luke had his little weirdo marriage too! AND HIS "LOVE CHILD" as we used to say. Nevermind the reasons why any of it happened, it just happened. the L/L relationships is not all that harmonious all the time.   My point is, down the road, those two could BREAK UP just like the other 60% of marriages.  Maybe over Anna being a BI for several years, or because Lorelai tries to discipline April and Luke disagrees, or WHATEVER - I mean, Lorelai is pretty controlling. Those two will be together if Lor is with anyone, but they had to make Chris a MONSTER to do it.  It is all very contrived, and it sure is NOT Season 1-5 anymore, is it.  L/L  are NOT "perfect mates" - my parents were perfect mates from day one.  L/L are not in their league.  Oh yes, i know this is a "modern" show about dysfunctional families and "blended" (yuk) families. I hate the term "blended" because i happen to believe that it is MUCH BETTER to meet one person, marry them, have the kids with them and STAY TOGETHER TIL THE DEATH.  I mean, what is this about hopping around in marriages?  I am divorced - and frankly, i really never tried again after that.  It was not what i wanted - i wanted ONE HUSBAND.  And everyone is SO JADED out there - everyone has an "EX" - you cannot begin to compare that to what some people have - People who TRULY are meant for each other and became ONE - very effortlessly.  Lorelai and Luke are NOT that couple, i just wanted to point that out.  Ok, you can throw things now.

I'm not gonig to throw things, because I agree for the most part (now I'm going to get attacked.) The way I see it, love is a lot more complicated than "Luke and Lorelai are soulmates because...they are."  There's two components to love, right?  Romantic love/initial attraction, and that longer lasting kind of love where you commit to someone and trust them, etc.  Now, Luke and Lorelai had an attraction--no doubt, since they flirted in the diner all those years.  But as far as I can tell, the major attraction of their relationship wasn't that they were romantic and lovey-dovey.  It's that they were friends first, that they were there for each other and trusted each other.  That Luke was totally unselfish when it came to Lorelai, and that she developed a deep respect for him as a man.  All really important things in a marriage.  

But, that committed love, understanding, trust, whatever, got seriously blown apart in Season 6.  And that is primarily why I don't see them as meant to be anymore.  I wouldn't ever have called them soulmates, and now I certainly wouldn't.  Now, I don't have a problem with the show getting them together at the end, because it's the fantasy for a lot of people.  The thing I see about the fan love for Luke and Lorelai is that people view Luke as the ideal man, and thus if they are women they project their fantasies on to Lorelai, so that Lorelai can be them and they can get Luke.  Or if they are a man, they dream that they are Luke, the ideal man, and can get Lorelai.  At least that's how I've seen it in some cases.    

So the big thing about this relationship now seems to be that Luke is the hero, that ultimately when compared to Christopher he stacks up better.  And as a stereotype of what a man should be, I think he does.  But just because Luke has been shown in recent episodes to be the solid protector who is always there for everyone in his life, doesn't necessarily have any bearing on whether Luke and Lorelai are an ideal romance or would have a lasting marriage.  And just because Chris comes across as the weaker, more childish man, doesn't mean that Lorelai has weaker feelings for him.

I have a different perspective on Christopher than a lot of people.  I don't see him as the shallow weak guy, the teenage fantasy without any substance, that most people do.  I think he is immature and weak.  But, like Emily, I like him, and I don't think he's a bad person.  Onscreen, Chris appears to be the man who just waltzed in and out of Lorelai's life, charmed her and then left, while Luke was that "rock" that was always there.  

But the show only shows us that small part of Lorelai's life in which Luke was present (an important part of her life, granted, but a small part timewise nevertheless).  I think to Lorelai (and this is just my perspective, everyone sees the show differently and that's what makes it fascinating) Chris was in some sense central to her entire life.  She grew up with him.  He was her first love.  He was the man who changed her life forever by giving her a child.  Every time she saw Rory, I think she would have, on some subconscious level, thought of Christopher.  The fact that she didn't get together with anyone else for years and years and actually told Christopher she'd been subconsciously waiting for him says a lot to me.  And if she was just waiting for him so that the biological family could be reunited, I think she would have married him at 16 or at least not told him to go off and follow his dreams.  Now, when Chris left her for Sherry, I think she realized that her future wasn't with this man.  She moved on, and she was going to build a future with Luke, and that's fine.  

This season, the show has given me all kinds of contradictory messages on what exactly Lorelai feels about Christopher.  The accepted opinion here seems to be that Lorelai just settled for Christopher and a nostalgic ideal, but her feelings for Chris were nothing were compared to her feelings for Luke.  Maybe that's how we're intended to see it, I really don't know.  But somehow that goes against my whole perspective on Lorelai and Christopher, and Lorelai and Luke for that matter.  The show can tell me anything.  The show can tell me that Lorelai falls madly in love with Kirk and I guess that would be reality in Gilmore Girls land, but I would find it pretty hard to believe.  

If Lorelai could fall for Chris as a teenager, and fall for him again at 32 and 33, and be physically attracted to him all these years, they have something between them.  It may very well not be enough to build a marriage on, but it's a powerful connection, and I think it's more than just brother-sister/best buddies/nostalgia.  Now I am not definitely not saying they are a destined couple/soulmates, just that I don't think the fact that Christopher comes across as the lesser man, means that Lorelai must not love him as much as she loved Luke.  

To be honest, I agree with zeddie.  Lorelai's relationships, all of them, are really very dysfunctional.  Almost everyone I know in my life has fallen in love/been married a lot more happily and effortlessly than Lorelai has.

[laurla205]

I can find the good in the times he has spent with Rory.  Being there for her debutant ball, when she got into an accident and broke her arm, wanting her to be a part of his and Sherry’s lives, technically he was there for her in Wedding Bell Blues because he was ready to kick the crap out of Logan (read to the bottom of my post before you disagree with this one), and these are just a few.  You’re right, he wasn’t always there for her growing up.  It’s been said (and I agree with) that he didn’t really know how to be there for her which caused a lot of his lack of presence.  It’s not an excuse but it does explain it for me.  I’m not going to regurgitate what’s been said to that effect so check out the Christopher appreciation thread if you’re interested.  My point is that I’ve only seen one (that I can remember) instance of where he truly disappointed Rory.  In fact I can’t even remember another that’s been implied he disappointed her.  The one I can remember is when Rory tells him to stay out of their lives at the vow renewal.  So to say that he’s been a constant disappointment to her, it’s just not true.  The character does have some good qualities that were never really explored in depth due to the focus of the show being on the girls.  Of course, it should be on them, but when he wasn’t a constant in their lives he was off doing the right thing (for a change ) and owning up to his responsibilities to Sherry and Gigi.  The important part of that was that he didn’t make the same mistake twice and that shows an improvement in his character. 

[lessa]

That's where Jackson and Sookie come in. One makeover, and they're married with two-and-a-half kids. (If it's a girl, will they recycle "Colgate" to name her?)

Jackson and Sookie are usually cast as comic relief or inferior sidekicks, but whatever the secret to happiness and propagation with your life-mate, they have it. Sookie would sell out her opinion to Jackson's feelings in a heartbeat, and Jackson is every bit as petty as Christopher when arguing, and every bit as reliable as Luke when apologizing and making it right. I'm thinking of the "Tisket a Tasket" scene where Jackson becomes irritable over something petty (I can't recall what exactly) and refuses to buy her basket. They make up and he ends up paying Kirk $250 in ten $25 installments so he can get it back and have lunch with his girlfriend. It was really nice.

They're not just in love, they really love each other, and when one knows the other will react badly, they lie, or manipulate, or cover, just Like Lorelai. If Sookie had had to admit she had feelings for an ex towards a noble cause, Jackson would have said he was hurt and whined about how unfair it was or ordered her not to write it. Then he would talk to Lorelai and find a creative way to make it unnecessary or just get over it. Then he would go home and make love to his wife.

They make it all seem so simple, Lorelai must be wondering why imitating it is so difficult for her. If it were me, I'd be just about ready to give up on Luke and give my besotted second choice a chance, too.

[ella]

Well, poor Sookie and Jackson only have a functioning relationship because they are comic relief.  They can have the exact same problems as the main characters and still work everything out in the end.  If they were serious characters, they'd need to watch out!  The more important the character is, the more complicated the love life.

[lessa]

Well, there's more to it than that. In a minor role, Sookie is a part of Lorelai, the part that values love, not abstract personality traits or patterns of behavior or personal grooming, in a relationship. Sookie's existence, I think, is meant to convey that for all her complicated life, she does have it in her to be loved for her deeper self, and not just her remarkable ability to talk the 6-items-or-less clerk to accept all 6 tubes of toothpaste as a single item so she can also get a magazine. Even when it's Taylor.

I think that part of her is currently being represented by Paul Anka. Like Lorelai, he's so odd, sometimes it's difficult to see what his little doggy feelings are doing in there.

On a side note, and it's probably just a coincidence, but physically abused dogs can develop peculiar sensitivities like that. Certain events become triggers for panic attacks and the like. It's just like Lorelai to work around him instead of getting him on doggy-Prozac.

[lsufan]

I have an issue with weak men. I've known a few. I am related to one. The result is that I have disdain and contempt for a weak, immature man. There is no way that I can respect a man like that, even if he is in most other ways acceptable. If those are Christopher's only bad traits - they are bad enough.

That's the personal bias that I bring with me when I watch this show. And no amount of explaining and/or defending his behavior can change that. I know men like him and I can get along with them, think they are charming or well-meaning, but I can't respect them.

[lessa]

Well, there are differing opinions on whether a woman must respect the man she marries, but Heinlein says she should, and that's good enough for me. I don't think I could be married to a man I didn't respect, either, lsufan.

But what she respects about Christopher seems to be his strong feelings. He loved her a lot through a lot of "no matter whats" and coincidence or not, he has been there for her in a humongous way, just by keeping himself in the running all those years she was dating other men. He didn't even trip at the finish when she told him their meaningless tryst was just that. That takes a certain kind of character that is not always obvious in other aspects of his life. And it takes a certain amount of that to wait out a woman who doesn't know how she feels.

[lsufan]

Well, I guess I was speaking for myself, not Lorelai. I don't respect Chris, which is why I don't like him and I was just admitting my bias - we all have our biases. So many people here seem to think that if a poster doesn't like Chris, it can only be because he/she likes Luke.

But, if Lorelai respects Christopher because he "has been there for here in a humongous way, just by keeping himself in the running all those years" and that it "takes a certain kind of character ... to wait out a woman who doesn't know how she feels," then I simply cannot understand that. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but that I simply don't understand it or agree with it. Christopher has been absent in more humongous ways than being there for her and his waiting for Lorelai didn't stop him from creating a child with another woman and marrying that woman.

[ella]

I have an issue with weak men. I've known a few. I am related to one. The result is that I have disdain and contempt for a weak, immature man. There is no way that I can respect a man like that, even if he is in most other ways acceptable. If those are Christopher's only bad traits - they are bad enough.

That's the personal bias that I bring with me when I watch this show. And no amount of explaining and/or defending his behavior can change that. I know men like him and I can get along with them, think they are charming or well-meaning, but I can't respect them.

That's totally understandable.  Everyone brings personal bias to the show, it can't be helped.  The thing is, I'm not sure that Lorelai has that personal bias.  I mean, a viewer might not respect Christopher, but Lorelai might, for her own personal reasons. Lorelai's feelings aren't necessarily the viewer's feelings.

I think that Luke and Christopher are such opposite people that it's rare a viewer would like both equally.  And I guess, therefore it makes it difficult to believe that Lorelai would have the same degree of love (although different in kind) for both of them.  But maybe she can.  She's a fairly unique person in a lot of ways.

[teach]

wow, it has been forever since I have posted anything.

I haven't been watching GG much lately cuz I wanted to skip the L/C parts.  I'll watch them when I buy season 7.

anyway, From what I have read on here, I don't think they can really finish this season up with Luke and Loralie getting married and it seem realistic.  Its just too soon.  There really needs to be an 8th season.  I hope that Alexis Bledel will be able to see this and go ahead and do season 8.  That way, they can have L/L get back together this season and get married in season 8.  It will be way more realistic if it happens that way.

wendy k