7.12 - To Whom It May Concern

[ggguyanddaughter]

Welcome!

Very cool that you watch Gilmore Girls with your daughter and it provides an opening for important discussions.
 
The way I saw her going to Luke in those instances was her going to a friend.  And I get that friendship can sometimes turn into love (I've experienced it and I do think that's what happened for her with Luke).  I will agree with you that him building her up while she was melting down about the Dragonfly was a great thing to do and very significant of his caring for her and I don't know that Chris would be able to do that for her at that point.  And while I doubt she would have considered going to Christopher at that point because he was married to someone else and he still wasn't really part of their lives, I do think he's been trying to make amends and do things like that (paying for Yale, going to Rory's events to support her, agreeing to come to Lane's wedding so Lorelai could go) that could build that kind of foundation as well.  She hasn't really crashed and burned since she's been with Christopher so we won't really know what he would do until something like that happens.

Thank you for replying to me and the welcome.

I understand and cannot disagree with your comments. However, I think that Lor has only allowed herself to appear strong and in control in her dealing with Chris. They seem to talk about their past lives, revel in Rory's accomplishments and bash their parents together (granted somewhat heavier issues have been forced on them lately). On the other hand, Lor chose to show herself in a weakened state to Luke. I still can't think of any other friend or relation the character has allowed that to happen with.

I would also say that a suddenly wealthy parent paying for his child's education,  while it is as you say making ammends does not rise to the level of the gift Luke maked.

Thanks for speaking to me.

Jack

[zeddie]

I like that Rory invited Paris to go tray sledding(?)  College kids do weird things. 

You bet! My college class went tray sledding yesterday. Just a note: cafeteria trays aren't durable at all. You only really get a few good runs out of them.

Damn I really want to see this episode.

I worked at a ski resort (small one) and there was definitely tray sliding after hours - GREAT FUN. WE did use those red plastic trays from the cafeteria.  We also had large aluminum Pizza Trays (from where i worked, making pizzas) and those worked too - GREAT SLIDING FACTOR espec. if you waxed them.  Basically everyone worked there to get free ski lifts.     But the trays were fun too!   Ah, the good old days...

I was thinking of something else.  All this agreement about L/L being made for each other, etc. Sure - i am on board with that, of course.  HOWEVER.  There has been plenty of deceit, fighting, misunderstanding, pouting, powerplaying, mistrust, manipulation, meanness, YOU NAME IT - in the L/L relationship.  PLUS - Luke had his little weirdo marriage too! AND HIS "LOVE CHILD" as we used to say.  Nevermind the reasons why any of it happened, it just happened. the L/L relationships is not all that harmonious all the time.   My point is, down the road, those two could BREAK UP just like the other 60% of marriages.  Maybe over Anna being a BI for several years, or because Lorelai tries to discipline April and Luke disagrees, or WHATEVER - I mean, Lorelai is pretty controlling. Those two will be together if Lor is with anyone, but they had to make Chris a MONSTER to do it.  It is all very contrived, and it sure is NOT Season 1-5 anymore, is it.  L/L  are NOT "perfect mates" - my parents were perfect mates from day one.  L/L are not in their league.   Oh yes, i know this is a "modern" show about dysfunctional families and "blended" (yuk) families. I hate the term "blended" because i happen to believe that it is MUCH BETTER to meet one person, marry them, have the kids with them and STAY TOGETHER TIL THE DEATH.  I mean, what is this about hopping around in marriages?  I am divorced - and frankly, i really never tried again after that.  It was not what i wanted - i wanted ONE HUSBAND.  And everyone is SO JADED out there - everyone has an "EX" - you cannot begin to compare that to what some people have - People who TRULY are meant for each other and became ONE - very effortlessly.  Lorelai and Luke are NOT that couple, i just wanted to point that out.  Ok, you can throw things now.

[jayde]

My point is, down the road, those two could BREAK UP just like the other 60% of marriages.  Maybe over Anna being a BI for several years...

Whooa, what? Hahah. The only way I can see that breaking up an L/L marriage is if Anna hits on Lorelai—and it works.

*edit* Okay I'm confused. Do you mean a BI*** , or as I originally took it? I mean I thought Anna being bisexual was a bit of a bizarre stretch. Never underestimate the importance of placeholder asterisks!

Well now my train of thought is completely derailed. *ahem*

Yes, I see your point though. The happily-ever-after of Luke and Lorelai is going to be how things are portrayed I imagine, but if the show were to extend another few seasons I'm sure it would cover the ups and downs of marriage. As much as many of us would feel happier, warmer and fuzzier seeing a perfect relationship, I'm not sure if it is expected. Yes the fan base would go into a rage if an L/L marriage failed, but as long as they held on and worked it out, a bumpy road along the way wouldn't be so awful for viewers.

I used to think that the writers were demonizing Chris. I'm not completely sure if that is happening yet though. He has been painted in a poor light before, but I think this last episode gave us insight into what Chris can tolerate, and what he cannot (as pointed out in one of Lessa's post). Since the marriage we've seen how accommodating Chris has been (has anyone noticed how he's ditched his GQ garb for jeans and sweatshirts?) I can understand that Chris hoped Lorelai was over Luke (though it was wishful thinking and naive on his part) and now that he realizes that winning the girl doesn't mean forever vanquishing the ex from said girl's heart. I can understand that thinking his wife is still in love with another man would make him feel terrible.

Chris's responses aren't that farfetched. I don't know why he'd think Lorelai could move past a serious relationship so quickly, but Chris has always been a bit fluffy when it comes to his understanding of Lorelai. He probably just didn't understand it was a serious relationship (again looking through fluff-covered glasses). All his relationships were him settling for a second best when his heart really wanted Lorelai. He probably imagined that Lorelai was doing the same thing. After all, they wanted to be together badly at the end of season 2, and he probably feels she still wanted that and has just been biding her time since. He never got to see Luke and Lorelai interact while dating. He hasn't lived in the same town and seen what Luke has done for Lorelai. He doesn't understand the bond they share and the respect she has for Luke. Why would he? Lorelai's relationship with Luke was something he wasn't there to witness, and something he wouldn't want to think about anyway.

The demonizing of Chris however is yet to come. From what I know of the previews, he's going to be made into the jerk of the year during the next episode. I know some readers consider previews as spoilers so I won't discuss anything about next episode till then. I agree that Chris shouldn't have his phone off even if he does need physical space away from Lorelai right now, but I also know that Lorelai avoids people and the phone when she's upset. The Gilmore Girls have the "freezing out" thing down pat. Chris's crime is mostly a crime of timing.

[laurla205]

Wow, there was some very thought provoking posting going on here over the weekend, sorry I missed it. 

On the other hand, Lor chose to show herself in a weakened state to Luke. I still can't think of any other friend or relation the character has allowed that to happen with.
 

This could go both ways too, she went to Christopher’s the night she saw as the end of her and Luke’s engagement.  That was a much weakened state.  Since we do not know the full occurrences of that night we can’t say for sure that she opened up to him the same way, but I would assume there was some pouring her heart out and I sincerely doubt that it was strictly whoopee making all night long. 

Great point Zeddie, L/L are not perfect, just like any other relationship she seems to have.  To me, L/L just do not seem destined to be anymore.  There was a time I felt they were, that was before taking a closer look at the L/C connection/relationship in previous seasons as well as this one.  It’s not that I feel they were written in the stars either, but I do see them having a more fulfilling long term relationship.  While everything L/L have gone through can make them stronger there’s also some serious problems, all of which you mentioned.

I still have an issue with how this portrays marriage as well.  While I’m sure they will do the end of the L/C marriage a certain amount of justice it still makes somewhat of a mockery out of the whole thing.  While I agree that for some it seems effortless, I don’t believe that’s completely true for anyone.  There is always some work that goes into sustaining a marriage, be it a little or a lot.  With all of the baggage our heroine has there’s bound to be some work and compromising to be done regardless of who her husband is.  While running with her tail between her legs is very in character for her, I always saw a marriage signaling the end of that for her.   And in this episode she was true to that.  I just wonder how long that will last.

[Luke Danes Fan]

Did I miss a significant scene? The scene where Chris apparently dictated to Lorelai that she could not go to Luke's Diner or see Luke?

No but Christopher clearly implies it by his actions. Whenever he sees or hears about Luke he tenses up and sends off the vibe that he's not ok with him.

Love is so much bigger than in love ...

Wow. Such a simple statement but that carries so much meaning. I couldn't agree more. Love is something long-term that is built and strengthened, and "in love" seems to me like infatuation. All couples fall in love, all couples fall out of love (in the infatuation sense) though television will never have us believe this. I know it doesn't sound fairytale pretty but if the only relationships that lasted were in a state of constant infatuation, we wouldn't have a lasting relationship out there.

First, let preface this by saying I think people use the word Love too freely today. People say it to people they just met and about everything else.

With that said there is a difference between Love, and being In Love. You can love your parents, sibblings, family, friends, and pets, but your not In Love (hopefully) with any of them. When your In Love with someone, it's different, your different, you see things differently. When your In Love with someone your heart skips a beat when that person is around you, you look into their eyes, and you see the future, and when you hold them you feel that nothing could be wrong, ven when everything is. When you first meet someone, sure that infatuation, or lust is very strong, and eventually fades some, but your still In Love, those feelings are still there.

Well, it wasn't exactly what I meant when I said Chris wouldn't allow her to write the letter, but since it's out there now...

When Luke broke up with Lorelai after "Wedding Bell Blues," his words and the resolution following an olive branch from Emily made it seem like it was her baggage, not her feelings, that he doubted he could handle. It was her flaws - secret-keeping, a controlling mother and an infatuated ex who had every right to be in her life - that drove him away, or so I gathered.

I think it was just the fact that he was hit by one thing after the other in short time. First he went to the wedding, where Emily and Richard made him feel oh so welcomed. Then Lorelai tells him real fast about the night she spent drinking with Christopher, and that she lied about it to him, just before Christopher walks up to them. Then Christopher follows them around and is making open passes towards Lorelai, and bringing up their past, and throwing the fact that he and Lorelai have that romantic history in Luke's face. Then when Luke reacts like the Dad he is to Rory, Christopher tells him he is Rory's father and Luke is nothing but someone who is with Lorelai now. Then he adds that the reason why he was invited to the wedding was because Emily said he wasn't too late to be with Lorelai. Luke needed sometime alone to recover from all of that, but Lorelaididn't give him that time, and before he could recover she pressured him for an answer, and he just ended it.

I think if Lorelai gave him a day or so they would have been able to move on, but she couldn't give him that time to process. You'll notice though that after they got back together Luke was ok with her seeing Christopher, as long as she didn't hide it from him again.

Christopher, by contrast, seems willing to tolerate far more complication (like living in a small town with her ex) as long as he can be sure of her feelings. He doesn't care that he has to hide quail in his sleeve (I wonder if Luke would have just said "no" or *gasp* done the polite thing and eaten it,) and he doesn't care that he has to man date her friends or make an athletic event of kissing under the mistletoe, but sharing her heart is too much for him.

It took so much before Luke walked out, but all it took for Christopher to walk out was Lorelai's letter endorsing Luke as a father.

He really has no choice, but to live in Stars Hollow. Lorelai doesn't want to leave her house. He knows how much she loves Luke still, so he probably see her wanting to stay in Stars Hollow as her way of being around Luke, when it's really everything.

I think Luke would most likely be polite and eat some of it, and use his "In Moderation" excuse like he did last year. I don't think him not hiding it is a mark against him or his character, I actually think it's a mark towards his commiment to Lorelai. He loves her enough to eat something like that.

Luke has proven that he is willing go out with her friends, like double dating with Sookie and Jackson, and with the Gilmores. He has even taken it one step farther and put up with Sookie and Jackson when he dropped everything at his diner to cook at the inn.

Luke would have mocked Lorelai about the mistletoe, but went along with it. He also would have commented on their stockings, but in the end leave them be and just add his own, I bet he would even let them sing it to match theirs.

Going to Luke when April was in the hospital is something you do for a friend. So was the recommendation, but writing it called for revealing feelings she wasn't comfortable sharing with Christopher, nor should she have been forced to. They incriminated her to him, and so she hid them. If she'd told him about it, she would have had to write a more inhibited letter that kept her feelings hidden. Or just send the 'monkey, monkey, underpants' draft.

BTW, wasn't lurking, I forgot to turn my browser off.

It's not so much what she does, but how she looks at him. She longs for him, and you can see it when she looks at Luke. No matter what the letter said, Christopher would have been mad, because she had contact with Luke. Look how he reacted when she was holding Doula, and when he found out the coffee that Sookie brought over was from Luke's.

[ggguyanddaughter]

Wow, there was some very thought provoking posting going on here over the weekend, sorry I missed it. 

On the other hand, Lor chose to show herself in a weakened state to Luke. I still can't think of any other friend or relation the character has allowed that to happen with.
 

This could go both ways too, she went to Christopher’s the night she saw as the end of her and Luke’s engagement.  That was a much weakened state.  Since we do not know the full occurrences of that night we can’t say for sure that she opened up to him the same way, but I would assume there was some pouring her heart out and I sincerely doubt that it was strictly whoopee making all night long. 

I agree this can be inferred from Lor's visit to Chris after the breakup with Luke. The crisis I was describing with Lor visit to Luke was one of the person. Is she good enough to run her own business? Will she be able to achieve her long time goals. IJMHO these are deeper waeknesses than a broken engagement. I am not comparing relative pain here just that a lack of faith in ones' self and ones' goals is deeper and requires a show of more vulnerability than crying over a broken engagement on Chris's shoulder.

Jack

[laurla205]

I agree this can be inferred from Lor's visit to Chris after the breakup with Luke. The crisis I was describing with Lor visit to Luke was one of the person. Is she good enough to run her own business? Will she be able to achieve her long time goals. IJMHO these are deeper waeknesses than a broken engagement. I am not comparing relative pain here just that a lack of faith in ones' self and ones' goals is deeper and requires a show of more vulnerability than crying over a broken engagement on Chris's shoulder.

I think a large concern a person can have for themselves is whether or not they are love-worthy.  At the very least it ranks up there with whether they can successfully run a business or achieve their goals, etc.  Especially since one of her goals is to have a successful relationship and “the whole package”.  I mean to say that when the relationship failed Lorelai had to be questioning herself.  She had found what she considered to be the love of her life up until that point, and they couldn’t make it work.  Not so that it was satisfactory to both of them.  That’s sure to create doubts about oneself and their ability to relate to others.  And since we didn’t see what happened at Christopher’s that night we don’t know to what extent this occurred.  But I am assuming it did and I also assume that Christopher did have some kind words for her.   

[lsufan]

So Christopher helped Lorelai deal with her possible love-worthy issues by perhaps kinds words and then having sex with her? 

[laurla205]

We don’t know for sure one way or the other, it could just be my wishful thinking but I do see it as a possibility.  I also don’t see the L/C relationship as one of a purely physical nature either so I’m sure that has something to do with it.  Using the past as an example and seeing that Lorelai was able to help Christopher through dealing with his father dying with plenty of tequila and still managing to keep both of their pants on, I assume there was some conversation here as well. 

ETA:  As the saying goes, it takes two to tango and I can't completely blame Christohper for the two of them having sex that night.

[jayde]

We don't know what she said to him. She could have said "He doesn't love me. If he loved me he'd marry me. I gave him time with April and he's showing no sign of ever wanting me in his life. I'm just there when it's convenient. I'm just not that important to him! It's over. We broke up."

The point is, Lorelai was heartbroken, and in her heart everything was over with Luke. She could have said some pretty intense things to Chris. Also, Lorelai wanted her relationship with Luke to be really over and not something that could be reinterpreted the next day. She needed the relief that would only come from a decision that was measurable. She knew if she didn't put it into action she'd still have her uncertainties (and everyone else's) of where she stood and where they stood. Having sex was making certain the relationship was finished, and I'm quite sure it was Lorelai's idea. She wouldn't let herself get 'pressured' into something like that, and she's always been the one that takes the initiative. If Chris believed what she likely told him, it's not shocking he'd give in and sleep with her. Was it the best thing to do? No. People make less than perfect decisions all the time. Having sex was a choice they made. It's not all on demon Chris's shoulders.

[lsufan]

I certainly don't mean to imply that this is all on Chris. Believe me. I am more willing to put a lot of this on Lorelai, contrary to many others. Also, I did not say that Christopher took advantage (though I think it is entirely possible). I am just at a complete loss to see kind words and having sex with Lorelai in that situation as helping her in any way, shape or form. I really cannot make that leap regardless of what she said or explained or expressed.

Holding Lorelai as responsible for that night does not excuse Christopher.

[ggguyanddaughter]

II think a large concern a person can have for themselves is whether or not they are love-worthy.  At the very least it ranks up there with whether they can successfully run a business or achieve their goals, etc.  Especially since one of her goals is to have a successful relationship and “the whole package”.  I mean to say that when the relationship failed Lorelai had to be questioning herself.  She had found what she considered to be the love of her life up until that point, and they couldn’t make it work.  Not so that it was satisfactory to both of them.  That’s sure to create doubts about oneself and their ability to relate to others.  And since we didn’t see what happened at Christopher’s that night we don’t know to what extent this occurred.  But I am assuming it did and I also assume that Christopher did have some kind words for her.   

I think we are at the point of our own personal opinions as to levels of crisis. Both dreams, of running her own business and the "total package", have been recurring themes in the show.I think each has validity (although I know mine is correct ) I feel that the key here is the "they couldn't make it work". Her feeling regarding the DFI was she couldn't make it work. This would be much more devastating to me than not being able to work it out with someone else either Chris/Luke/Max or Richard's partner (I Forgot his name). Thus the faith in Lor and the loan without any questions asked is more profound to me than Chris's help which did by the way also get him sex with the person he wished to sleep with.  Again though this is only my opinion.

jack

[Luke Danes Fan]

Lorelai was weak and vulnerable, and if Christopher was the friend he always claimed to be, and any type of man at all, no matter what was said, he wouldn't have slept with her. No matter what was said she didn't need to have sex that night, what she needed was someone to listen to her.

Whenever she talked to Luke, no matter what it was about, when she was defeated and poured her soul out to him, he never used it as a time to make his move, he was there for her, not for himself, and I think Christopher sleeping with Lorelai that night is just another example of him putting himself before her again.

We don’t know for sure one way or the other, it could just be my wishful thinking but I do see it as a possibility.  I also don’t see the L/C relationship as one of a purely physical nature either so I’m sure that has something to do with it.  Using the past as an example and seeing that Lorelai was able to help Christopher through dealing with his father dying with plenty of tequila and still managing to keep both of their pants on, I assume there was some conversation here as well. 

ETA: As the saying goes, it takes two to tango and I can't completely blame Christohper for the two of them having sex that night.

Lorelai shares the blame also, but she was the vulnerable one, Christopher should have been the one to make sure it didn't happen.

As far as her comforting him when his father died, we don't know what happened, but we do know that he was at his mom's house with GiGi. He proably didn't have the chance to make a move. Plus Lorelai wasn't vulnerable, she went there just to be there for him, as he should have just been there for her when she had the fight with Luke.

[lsufan]

Lorelai was weak and vulnerable, and if Christopher was the friend he always claimed to be, and any type of man at all, no matter what was said, he wouldn't have slept with her. No matter what was said she didn't need to have sex that night, what she needed was someone to listen to her.

Whenever she talked to Luke, no matter what it was about, when she was defeated and poured her soul out to him, he never used it as a time to make his move, he was there for her, not for himself, and I think Christopher sleeping with Lorelai that night is just another example of him putting himself before her again.

This gets to the heart of why I can't trust Christopher. He can be unthinkingly selfish and oblivious, but more to the point is that I always feel that Christopher has a sense of entitlement, particularly as it concerns Lorelai.

A lot of Christopher's attitude seems to match Emily's or Richard's. He refers to Luke as 'that diner guy' as though Luke is easily dismissed. Certainly Lorelai should be able to get over 'that diner guy' right? especially for someone as wonderful as Chris? It is as though it is flat out incomprehensible to him that Lorelai would ever consider Luke good enough for her. He, Christopher, is more entitled to her love and affection. That's the feeling I get from Christopher.

I think we are at the point of our own personal opinions as to levels of crisis. Both dreams, of running her own business and the "total package", have been recurring themes in the show.I think each has validity (although I know mine is correct ) I feel that the key here is the "they couldn't make it work". Her feeling regarding the DFI was she couldn't make it work. This would be much more devastating to me than not being able to work it out with someone else either Chris/Luke/Max or Richard's partner (I Forgot his name). Thus the faith in Lor and the loan without any questions asked is more profound to me than Chris's help which did by the way also get him sex with the person he wished to sleep with.  Again though this is only my opinion.

jack

I have always felt that Luke's giving Lorelai the loan was more profound, also. He didn't use it as an opportunity to do anything other than be the friend that she needed. While Christopher may or may not have initiated the 'help me feel loveable' sex, he sure didn't turn it down. And the next day, he acted as though it was automatically expected that she would continue to sleep with him. Again, to me, it is as though he feels entitled to her.

[laurla205]

I certainly don't mean to imply that this is all on Chris. Believe me. I am more willing to put a lot of this on Lorelai, contrary to many others. Also, I did not say that Christopher took advantage (though I think it is entirely possible). I am just at a complete loss to see kind words and having sex with Lorelai in that situation as helping her in any way, shape or form. I really cannot make that leap regardless of what she said or explained or expressed.

Holding Lorelai as responsible for that night does not excuse Christopher.

You definitely can’t blame one without blaming the other.  I guess I see it as Christopher having something to offer other than his body.  That’s what it boils down to.  The main defense of Luke in this situation is that Christopher always just ends up sleeping with Lorelai.  While they may end up in bed together as often as they don’t, that doesn’t mean it’s all that transpired.  That’s all I’m trying to say.  We’ve discussed in the past (I can’t remember which thread now) that Christopher and Lorelai share the same background and therefore have a great understanding of each other.  He gets the way she is with her parents, the rebellion, the striving to live a different life and therefore the drive in her life.  He supports her decisions, no matter how foolish they may be.  That could have come in handy in making her feel better about herself in this situation. 

I think jayde has a point, sleeping with Christopher put a definite end to her relationship with Luke which may have been her desired effect at the time.  In this example she’s not so much vulnerable as conniving (no I don’t really think that she’s conniving, but for argument’s sake).   

I feel like if she’s not feeling double crossed over it, I have no right to.  Yes, she regretted it the next day but she continued a relationship with him after that.  And look at what it lead to, she’s now married (in what could be a great marriage given time) and dealing with more serious problems then whether or not she slept with someone else the night she ended an engagement. 

I didn’t mean to turn this into another debate about the end of Partings, I was just trying to illustrate a situation where she turned to Christopher in a weakened state.  I should have used another example, like when he was there for her the night of Rory and Jess’ car accident, or when he showed up and escorted her to Lane’s wedding.