Rory Gilmore Unappreciation
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Dani257
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« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2006, 11:18:17 pm »

I agree that a big part of Lorelai not speaking up to Rory has to do with not wanting to be Emily, and her mom card being flimsy.  And, I do for the most part agree with Lorelai on the mom card.  I mean, I think when you're a mother and your child is still a child (and, I'd say that definition all the way to at least 17 or 18, if they're living in your house) you have the right and responsibility in some situations to say, "my house, my rules"  Which, for all of Lorelai's leniency, I think she's done, when it mattered.  Going to Chilton, for one thing, when Rory was saying she wanted to stay at Stars Hollow High. But, I think once you're an adult, a parent can't continue to tell someone what to do.  She can't forbid Rory to do something.  That's when the mom card is flimsy.  But, if your friend was doing something wrong, or something that could ultimately hurt them, most people would speak up.  They wouldn't be intending to be strict or lay down rules (especially friends, and not parents, since friends have never been in the position to lay down rules for each other) but out of caring, they'd say something. And, I think a mother would.  At least, ask if they're sure and if they've thought things over.   Sometimes I think Lorelai goes past "I'm giving you your space to be an adult and make your mistakes" to seeing Rory about to poke her eye out and being too scared to say anything.  To me, that's because Lorelai did speak up about Dean, out of concern for Rory, and Rory turned on her.
In fact, the transcript you gave, flex, was interesting for what came at the end:

If she doesn’t want to hear it, she doesn’t have to
take it. She doesn’t have to call, or come home.

I find it interesting that she's worried that Rory won't call and come home.  That Rory will take even the slightest indication that Lorelai isn't 100% supportive of any action as an excuse to break away from her.  And, I could analyse more, but that would get into Lorelai and Emily and off of Rory.

And I totally agree on how Rory acted with Colin and Finn.  I think they're fools, but I don't think they were being uncaring.  They use humor to deal with things.  It's a pretty common method.  And, I thought there was some distinct disapproval in Finn's voice when he talked about Shira going off to a spa and calling Mitchum 'The Dark Lord'.  They were there at the hospital waiting just like she was.  How dare she tell them to leave.  They have as much right to be there (more, if you count longevity of relationships) and just because they handle things by being silly is no excuse for her to act like she gets to say if they can wait for their friend.  It's not like they were doing a jig on top of his broken body.
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« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2006, 03:45:53 pm »

Quote
I think that Lorelai is afraid of her relationship with Rory turning into her relationship with her own mother.

Loerlai wants everything to be all hoonky-doory and dandy between her and her daughter because she doesn't want their relationship to turn anything out like hers and Emily's.  She is afraid to displine her daughter, disagree with her daughter, and tell her daughter "no."  I mean Rory went from a "Harved-bound 4.0 prep-school girl" to a college drop-out running around with her boyfriend stealing a boat and getting in trouble with the law.  Loerlai basically never saw the change and the few times she did, she said and did nothing. 

I think what a huge problem is is that Rory is lacking guidence.  I mean Loerlai really isn't in a position to be giving her teenage daughter any dating advice.  She can't give her daughter any school advice either.  This is a hard possition.  Loerlai missed out being 21 in her life.  She is trying to be to much of a friend to Rory, so she can relive thoes years she missed raising Rory, rather then be a parent.  I think that she needed to shift gears and put her foot down and get a grasp on what was going on.  But on the other hand, I understand what Loerlai is doing.  She wants to be a "friend" rather than a "parent" so Rory won't push away like Loerlai did with Richard and Emily.  There has to be a happy medium.


(Please don't get me wrong, I really do love Loerlai and Rory!- I feel guilty posting on a "Rory UNappreciation thread"  I'm not anit-Gilmore in any way!)
« Last Edit: August 15, 2006, 03:47:25 pm by Stars-n-Moons » Logged



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« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2006, 04:55:25 pm »

We welcome unappreciation in this thread.  I happen to like analysing the characters, and there's really more scope for analysis when you're dealing with the negative.  (and unappreciation threads seem to be more character focused, rather than actor focused)

But, I don't agree that Lorelai can't give Rory dating or school advice.  As far as school, how many children have been the first in their entire families to go to college?  I know this isn't the case for Rory, but are those families not in the position to give advice because they didn't go?  Lorelai doesn't need to have gone to college to be able to tell Rory that she shouldn't let one man's opinion completely knock her down.  She also knows Rory.  That puts her in a good position.  She knew Rory putting herself in a position like the one she was in with Dean (er, I mean the emotional status, not literally a "position" Embarrassed) could potentially hurt Rory if Dean didn't leave Lindsay.  She knew Rory wasn't a casual dater, and might feel rejected even knowing up front she wasn't in an exclusive relationship with Logan.  I think she would have had a very valid place for simply asking Rory if she had thought things through.  Although, for all Lorelai says she's Rory's friend, I think early on she did a good job of being able to be the mother when necessary, not just the friend. 
 
And, I'm not really sure the dropping out of school or stealing a boat would be something that Lorelai could have caught.  To me, those were specific behaviors related to a specific incident, not a change in Rory's character.  I don't think she would have done any of that if she hadn't gotten the bad review from Mitchum.  I don't mean it was his fault, I just mean her actions weren't something that were going to happen eventually because she changed.  There was a direct correlation between the bad performance review and her boat stealing/dropping out.

Someone at TWoP said something interesting.  Rory lacks empathy with people.  She can be sympathetic, especially if she already relates to their feelings, but if she doesn't, she has a hard time putting herself in their place.  Like her behavior with Colin and Finn at the hospital.  It was like she couldn't put herself in their place, that they had actually seen the accident, had been waiting at the hospital all that time (and probably made the arrangements to get him there) and probably had asked for information on his condition but had been given the same answer she got.  She didn't seem to be able to process that maybe they were worried and coping the way they knew best.  Although, i think both of them were able to look at things from her point of view and think that a lot of her snapping at them (still out of line) came from worry.  I hadn't thought of that before.  Anyone agree or not that Rory lacks the ability to put herself in another person's shoes? 
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« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2006, 05:06:18 pm »

(er, I mean the emotional status, not literally a "position" Embarrassed

Ok, this made me laugh so hard.

I agree, it was the way she reacted to Colin and Finn, and also how dismissive of Lorelai she was in the episode that really put the nail in the ocffin if my Rory Unapprieciation. She very much lives inside her own head, and I'm not sure if it's because she wasn't like that at 15 when most people are, as Lorelai pointed out. When you're younger, you can get away with being self centred, and un empathetic, but during the 'stroppy teen' years, Rory was too busy being the 'sweetest kid in the world' and I think she's making up for it now. And unfortunatly, it' s much less forgivable from a 21 year old.
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« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2006, 08:02:51 pm »

She very much lives inside her own head, and I'm not sure if it's because she wasn't like that at 15 when most people are, as Lorelai pointed out. When you're younger, you can get away with being self centred, and un empathetic, but during the 'stroppy teen' years, Rory was too busy being the 'sweetest kid in the world' and I think she's making up for it now. And unfortunatly, it' s much less forgivable from a 21 year old.

Yes, it is less forgivable in an adult.  But, I wonder if Rory switching behaviors (being more adult as a teenager and less as an adult) might be something that does relate indirectly to Lorelai.  Not so much anything Lorelai did, but one of the hooks of the show was the grown up daughter and teen-like mom.  I don't mean to imply that Lorelai forced Rory to grow up too soon or anything, but I think Lorelai was growing up during Rory's teen years.  I agree with Stars-n-Moons that Lorelai did miss out on the normal young adult years, I just think her reliving them have pretty much ended before Rory hit college.  But, with the exceptions of when the mom card absolutely had to be played, Lorelai and Rory related more to each other as sisters.  Occasionally, Rory was even the more mature one (especially in the little details likeLorelai being bored when Rory was studying).  So, because Rory wasn't in a position where she would have the same need for rebellion and self centeredness as a teen (compared to people with more strict mothers) and again, in some ways being more mature, she might not have had any reason to be self centered.  Plus, she was in an environment where everyone loved her.  The only exception was the hours she spent at Chilton, and she had a few allies there (Max, at least) as well.  Plus, Rory was surrounded on a regular basis by people she cared about.  So, it would be more likely for her to think about them.  And, I don't want to exaggerate Rory's flaws by saying she only thinks about people she likes or cares about (she actually was emphatic to Paris in Paris is Burning) but now that the majority of her time is spent in a world of people she doesn't have a connection to (I mean the faceless Yale students and teachers that she's not close friends/girlfriend with) she might be more likely to display more self centeredness.  I think everything she did as a teenager was genuine, not an act or simply living up to an image, but in a way, maybe subconsciously, the restraints are off at Yale?  Or, maybe I should stop trying to practice backseat psychology on a fictional character.  Or, maybe it's again a difference between sympathy and empathy (with the exception of understanding how Paris felt about her parents' divorce being all over the school).  In her teen years, Rory was surrounded by people who, didn't all think alike, but were either close or had similar values and ways of thinking.  So, she could be sympathetic and didn't have to work at being empathetic.  Now, she's off with people from different backgrounds, different types of families, social settings, from big cities and small ones.  It might be for the first time, her need for empathy has come and she hasn't had to cultivate it before.
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« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2006, 07:08:58 pm »

Quote
In her teen years, Rory was surrounded by people who, didn't all think alike, but were either close or had similar values and ways of thinking.  So, she could be sympathetic and didn't have to work at being empathetic.  Now, she's off with people from different backgrounds, different types of families, social settings, from big cities and small ones.  It might be for the first time, her need for empathy has come and she hasn't had to cultivate it before.

Very true.  Rory was always use to the "small town setting" and not much empathy was required.  Now that her world has broadened, she is having trouble expressing empathy.



Quote
Anyone agree or not that Rory lacks the ability to put herself in another person's shoes? 

Yes, i have noticed that too.  In a lot of cases, (not all) I think that comes with being an only-child.  I have two very close friends who are both only-childs and they both share so many of the same characterisitcs; one being that they have an extremely hard time putting themselves in anyone else's shoes or examining anything from a different perspective or point of view.  I see this a lot in the character of Rory.  She just doesn't understand how anyone else's feeling are affected by given actions.  Take round 2 with Dean.  She just couldn't put herself in Lindsay's shoes.  She only though of herself and her emotions.  And even when her and Logan were broken-up she coukd never understand his point of view and his side of the story.  Take Mitchium for example, Rory couldn't comprehend that she "didn't have what it takes."  Instead of asking herself "Okay, if I were Mitchum, what would I want to see in an intern that Rory doesn't have.."  instead she just thought about herself and never looked at the situation from anyone else's point of view.
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« Reply #21 on: August 17, 2006, 06:02:59 pm »

When  Lorelai and Rory were having the "I'm more stupider" conversation. I think Rory was more Stupider. Because she decided to quit Yale, commit a crime with Logan, a not speak qith Lorelai for a while. Lorelai didn't do anything, Rory just shut her out.
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« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2006, 11:45:05 am »

My biggest beef with the "new and improved" Rory is that i can't remember the last time i saw her read a book. Maybe Jess's book. But other than that, when was the last time we saw her curl up with a book? In on of the episodes where we see her living with Emily and Richard Rory is so bored and doesn't know what to do with herself that she polishes silver with the maid. The younger Rory Gilmore never needed ANYONE to entertain her. She would curl up with a book and be so happy she could ignore a guy getting hit in the face with a football.

But, at the same time, I kind of understand her. There has been a LOT of pressure on her all her life to kind of be the Lorelei that Lorelei never got to be. Not directly of course, but it was still there. It was always expected that she'd go to a big school and be her mums best friend and whatever. And yeah Lor didn't play the mom card a lot, but there were just as many times where Rory didn't get to play her kid card either. How many times did she end up helping Lor with her problems? IT was always Lorelei bugging Rory to go out for ice cream while she was studying. And that was fine, they were friends. But maybe Rory needed more parenting than was actually there. Not to disrespect Lor's character at all cause i think i'm in love with her, but still my point remains.

In terms of rory dropping out of yale, I think it got blown WAY out of proportion. She didnt say she was never going back. She said she wanted some time to figure out what she wanted. In my opinion, this isn't a big deal. I wanted to take a year off of school and got bullied into going back by my own parents. now i have a diploma that isn't what i want, wont get me a job and caused me a LOT of debt. I dont think Rory taking a year off deserved the reaction it did. I also dont think her taking a year off or any thing else is Logans fault. In the end, SHE MADE the choices. She chose who she wanted to hang out with. I've always thought of Logan as Tristan the second. Maybe the sense of never getting to have fun in highschool DID come back. I mean logan was clearly Tristan. And the group easily reminded me of Madeline and Louise.

In the end, college is about figuring out who you are to yourself. And maybe thats all rory's doing. I just wish she wouldn't be so selfish and annoying while she did it.

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« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2006, 11:46:40 am »

Gosh I dont like rory's new look it makes her seems so fake.  Freshmand year ans sophmore year were really good to that girl but this past season she just looks weird and plastic almost
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« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2006, 11:53:26 am »

Theres been a few episodes where she looks like Emily Junior. *gasp* ASP forbid...
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« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2006, 11:55:32 am »

OMG you are right,  That is totally scary but probabky what they were going for
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« Reply #26 on: August 24, 2006, 12:52:03 pm »

Theres been a few episodes where she looks like Emily Junior. *gasp* ASP forbid...

I noticed that too, especially in season 6. I think Rory shares a lot of qualities with her grandparents. The most obvious is her fashion sense, because Rory dresses very preppy (as opposed to Lorelai who is more trendy), and a little conservatively, as I would imagine Emily dressing at that age. And some of those coats and sweaters Rory wore in season 6 were very Emily-esque.


Lorelai also mentions Richard and Rory sharing personality traits in Ted Koppel's Big Night Out (season 4)

EMILY: So, any word from that little ex-hoodlum of hers?

LORELAI: No, Jess seems to be gone for good.

EMILY: How is she?

LORELAI: She's Rory. She's stoic. She's a lot like Dad.

EMILY: She is, isn't she?



Is it just me, or is Lorelai almost afraid to say anything critical to Rory?  Because now Rory is likely to shut her out if she hears the least little, "are you sure you want to do this?"

found another example:

You've Been Gilmored (season 6)

RORY: So, what do you think of me moving in with Logan?

LORELAI: I'm sorry, do you remember what happened the last time I piped in with my opinions on your life choices?

RORY: Mom, come on.

LORELAI: [cringes] You don't want to make sure the pool house is clean first?

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« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2006, 01:13:30 pm »

Last time we saw Rory read a book was A Vineyard Valentine. Some book by Joan Didion, when Lorelai came to ask if she and Luke were supposed to stay in their room.  Last time someone referred to Rory reading was Partings, when Logan threatened to take away her Stalin biography.

About the leaving school, it wasn't that specifically. I mean, for me.  I think the mere fact she left was the problem for Lorelai. Yeah, people take time off.  My problem was the whys and the reasoning behind it.  That she was making a decision about a major part of her life, based on a criticism of a section of it.  I felt like they took a fundamental aspect of Rory's character (leaning for learning's sake) and narrowed it down to just being a journalist.  And, it's sort of like falling off a horse.  You fall off and stop riding awhile to rest and heal, that's one thing.  You stop out of fear, that's cause for concern.  I felt Rory stopped living her life and completely took on another kind during her time off.  I don't mind her going to parties.  I don't mind her expanding her interests or having her character change in some ways.  But, from the time she left school to going back, I saw all of that as one big rebellion because someone told her she couldn't do something.

And, if Rory weren't a character with ASP making sure that things would work out, I don't know that realistically she'd ever have gone.  In fact, at one point, she talked like Yale was something in the past, something that was finished.  Not something she was taking a break from.  She never attempted to try and think of alternative things to do besides journalism, if she was taking Mitchum's words to heart.  She was basically floating.  Letting Emily decide on a job, going along with Logan (and no, not blaming Logan.  He didn't force her to do anything.)  There was no movement forward, and no sense that she was thinking of moving forward at a later time.  If it wasn't for Jess just happening to publish a book at the time her goals were going downhill and sparking a bit of jealousy, would she have stayed out even longer?  And, to me, Rory deciding to take time away from school is like a ballerina who still loves ballet deciding just not to dance.  (hmm, not sure if that comparison works)

Oh, and to add to the list of ways that Rory is like her grandparents.  All the Gilmore women share a skill of organization and running things.  It's where Rory got her skill in running that DAR function where everyone was dressed up like they were in WWII (sorry, blanking on the name)
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« Reply #28 on: August 24, 2006, 03:53:59 pm »

Rory used to dress trendy like Lorelai, it has just been since she moved in with her grandparents...I'd maybe understand it more if it was while she was living with them, but yeah that picture is from afterward the whole "mother/daughter make-up" scene. Maybe it just rubbed off on her. I hope she doesn't grow up to be toomuchlike Emily, she seems headed in a similer direction despite that she is apparently "back on track". I guess somehtings can't ever be fixed back to the way the were, no matter how much they try to revert. 
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« Reply #29 on: August 29, 2006, 04:57:20 pm »

My biggest beef with the "new and improved" Rory is that i can't remember the last time i saw her read a book. Maybe Jess's book. But other than that, when was the last time we saw her curl up with a book? In on of the episodes where we see her living with Emily and Richard Rory is so bored and doesn't know what to do with herself that she polishes silver with the maid. The younger Rory Gilmore never needed ANYONE to entertain her. She would curl up with a book and be so happy she could ignore a guy getting hit in the face with a football.

But, at the same time, I kind of understand her. There has been a LOT of pressure on her all her life to kind of be the Lorelei that Lorelei never got to be. Not directly of course, but it was still there. It was always expected that she'd go to a big school and be her mums best friend and whatever. And yeah Lor didn't play the mom card a lot, but there were just as many times where Rory didn't get to play her kid card either. How many times did she end up helping Lor with her problems? IT was always Lorelei bugging Rory to go out for ice cream while she was studying. And that was fine, they were friends. But maybe Rory needed more parenting than was actually there. Not to disrespect Lor's character at all cause i think i'm in love with her, but still my point remains.



omg i totally agree!!

In terms of rory dropping out of yale, I think it got blown WAY out of proportion. She didnt say she was never going back. She said she wanted some time to figure out what she wanted. In my opinion, this isn't a big deal. I wanted to take a year off of school and got bullied into going back by my own parents. now i have a diploma that isn't what i want, wont get me a job and caused me a LOT of debt. I dont think Rory taking a year off deserved the reaction it did. I also dont think her taking a year off or any thing else is Logans fault. In the end, SHE MADE the choices. She chose who she wanted to hang out with. I've always thought of Logan as Tristan the second. Maybe the sense of never getting to have fun in highschool DID come back. I mean logan was clearly Tristan. And the group easily reminded me of Madeline and Louise.

In the end, college is about figuring out who you are to yourself. And maybe thats all rory's doing. I just wish she wouldn't be so selfish and annoying while she did it.

A FER GOODNESS SAKE READ A BOOK!
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