Mitchum Huntzberger / Gregg Henry Appreciation
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Author Topic: Mitchum Huntzberger / Gregg Henry Appreciation  (Read 26543 times)
Dani257
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« Reply #30 on: June 08, 2006, 12:29:16 am »

It doesn't matter if fear was his motivator. The alternative is that he decided early on he was spending Valentine's Day with his girlfriend (likely considering the amount of planning that went into it) and he didn't tell his father because he knew he couldn't make it stick to his face. He lied to his father, fully aware of the consequences. He may have told himself it was for Rory, but she would have understood if he'd cancelled and told her the truth. I think deep down, he's started to question that his father gets to decide how he spends any of his time, let alone the next year of his life. I'm hoping his progressive rebellion since he met Rory is a sign of that.

I didn't get the feeling that any planning went into it.  The house is always there, they just had to drive there and do what they wanted.  I think he just doesn't like Mitchum, and just doesn't want to take the time to talk to him.



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These aren't real people. They'll eventually get whatever life they deserve. I know he isn't much on the inside yet, but Logan deserves better than to be tossed into the daily grind far from home immediately after he finishes the daily grind of graduating from Yale. Be that as it may, Rory and Logan were getting just a bit too steady, even though they had a long way to go. (A near-death experience may make a fight about unfaithfulness seem small, but it doesn't make it go away.)


So, if they're going to eventually get it anyway, why does it matter if Logan is temporarily unhappy?  It'll all work out.  If it sticks at they aren't real, what's the point of talking?  Of course they aren't real, but they're supposed to be believable as real people.  If I'm not talking about the writing or the choices the directors made or whatever takes me out of the story, if I'm just talking about a guy called Mitchum and his son, Logan, like real people, I can't do it without bringing in real life as a frame of reference. 


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Sure there is. Mitch works long hours and he notices others who do. He deals ruthlessly with his partners, making it difficult for him to be friends with professional associates. He separates people by undefinable standards and consistently rewards raw capability over character and dedication. This makes him incredibly successful, but it's a part of who he is that can't be removed in his more intimate or personal interactions.
Mitch doesn't care who Logan dates the way Lorelai cares about who Rory dates. Maybe because his personal life is such a mess that he knows he has no useful advice to give. But that doesn't mean Logan doesn't need advice, and considering his mistakes, I kind of wonder who he does ask seriously about that kind of thing. Probably his exes. Cheesy

We don't know what Mitchum's work life is like.  Not completely.  We've never seen him work with his partners, there's no proof that he's not friends with his associates.  But, I'm not sure how that relates to Logan's life not having to be exactly like Mitchum's if he happens to have the same job.  Are all people in Mitchum's business clones of Mitchum?  Do they all act the same way?  If Logan finds that he likes that kind of work, he could still run the business differently. 

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I think following Logan around would interfere with Rory's current plans. I wonder if Shira gave up her 'lower class' career to follow Mitchum?

But, it's okay for Logan to follow her around?  And, if Logan was working as the editor of a paper, or corporate owner (which seems like he wouldn't even need to be there all the time) how would that interfere with Rory's plans of being a reporter?  They'd be in the same business.  She'd still be able to write.  I can't see how this makes Rory lose her career.



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Sinking a yacht isn't nothing. How else could he be ready, willing and able when his girlfriend needed to steal a yacht? Like Lunk, he's seen enough trouble to keep a level head in almost any crisis. I picture Lorelai's bf as more of a recreational fishing boat theif in his reckless youth. But I've digressed.

Yeah, sinking a yacht is something.  Stealing one is something.  I didn't think I gave the impression I was talking about stuff like that.  I'm talking about purposeful, meaningful, worthwhile things.  I hardly think sinking or stealing a yacht counts.  Logan spent a year doing nothing of value.  And, the fact that it make him reading and willing to help Rory steal a yacht just confirms to me that he had a whole year to do something (and once again, I don't mean something in the definition of a reckless or stupid act, I'm mean something of value) to search for something, to gain an interest, and he didn't do it.  So, why should Mitchum think that him going to Asia is going to be any different?


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Wasteful to whom? If he has no dreams to apply himself to, it's all wasted for him. I still think he secretly dreams of making his father happy. He always sounds so nonchalant when he's describing what a disappointment he is, but he never strays far enough from the straight and narrow to violate 'the fine print on the family crest.' Graduating Yale isn't easy for a true slacker, but he can't be part of the family legacy if he doesn't do it. What drives his late-night study sessions during finals week?
Logan doesn't want to let his family down, he just doesn't think he's the son his father wanted. He hankers after life and people and doing things on the spur of the moment. He takes life as it comes relying on wit and energy to deal with the emergencies that life brings. The only way to avoid being suffocated by his father's hopes for him is to ignore them until he has to deal with them, then go back to ignoring them afterwards, by whatever means necessary. Maybe it's time for Mitch to openly admit he'd love Logan no matter what he did.

Wasteful to society, for one thing.  People are supposed to do something with their lives.  Contribute.  Add something or do a service or something.  And, I don't think Logan is a complete slacker.  I just think he finds it easier to go with the flow.  Even if the flow is doing something he doesn't like.  The thing is, Mitchum isn't tying him down, he didn't bodily throw Logan on the plane to London, or to any of the meetings.  Logan could step away.  I don't think pleasing his family is that big a motivator.  If it was, he'd work harder.  He wouldn't just ignore things.  He'd go to all the meetings, he'd do the lunches or whatever, and he wouldn't put things off.  I'm not saying he should do that (especially if he had an alternative) but when someone puts earning someone else's approval high on their list, they work more at it.  Logan's actions don't strike me as someone desperate for his father's approval.  They strike me as someone who doesn't like his life, but lacks the courage to do anything different.  Staying with the family business, even if he doesn't like it, is a pretty sure bet of success.  The Huntzberger name probably is enough, and he's lived and breathed all of it for years.  Logan striking out on his own, doing something else, is risky, it's scary.  It's easier to stick with it and complain.   

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And Mitch doesn't have to stand back and do nothing just because he kicks his son off the treadmill. Heck, Mitch should start him at the bottom rung meeting correspondents and cameramen instead of executives and VIP. I bet he could talk his way up faster than he could get used to having a corner office handed to him with strings attached.


Okay, this I can get behind.  It seemed like if Logan had said he wanted to be a coked out bum, Mitchum should just sit there and not do anything.  I'm cool with him having Logan start at the bottom. 

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But without that flexibility, or anything about it that recognized Logan's particular talents, it seems more like a 'So Long to Daisy Miller' situation, (As Rory herself was in when she couldn't control herself around her married boyfriend.) It seemed like an excuse to get him out of the country during a delicate stage of his life and give him a chance to step back and evaluate all his personal relationships and how they fit into his life. (In which case, just this once, Huntzberger policy is directed at her, and anyone else Logan could become irrationally attached to.)
As a career move, the trip to London is meaningless (I'd wondered why the writers never fleshed it out) but as a bit of personal space for Logan to clear his head and think alone (imho) it shouldn't last five episodes.
Perhaps realizing this, Rory has decided her relationship with Logan is stronger than any test to which Mitch might put it. But if his cooling-off period does run too long, Rory may take it as an indication that he is happy growing into his father's dream and 'give him his freedom' to avoid discouraging him. Maybe Mitch will suggest it.


I don't think this is some test of their relationship.  I think Mitchum doesn't have time for lies.  If he takes the time to discuss his purpose to "Logan's little girlfriend" he's going to tell her the simple truth.  It's about being away from Colin and Finn, who I think are nice pals but nothing in the way of motivators, about being away from the atmosphere of parties and people in that group which make it easy for him to play hooky as a profession.  If he says he doesn't hate Rory or put that much thought into their relationship, I don't think he's lying.  And, I don't think Mitchum will suggest that Rory "give Logan his freedom."  Rory's not a discouragement, her existance doesn't hinder Logan, and Mitchum doesn't see it like that.  And, again, they would be in the same field of work.  Plus, the move seems to be more directed at his environment than any one relationship.  The place where his identity is king of the sloths. 

And, I think Rory feels Mitchum is right.  I don't think she let Logan go thinking "he's not going to let his dad tear us apart" because she knows Mitchum doesn't care about that.  She believes that Mitchum is right in his belief that Logan needs to be on a path, professionally.  Whether or not you or I believe it doesn't effect how she feels.  I think Rory expects him to finish out the year in London, she's not going anywhere during that year (I mean, she's not leaving the relationship) she's planning on being there, and if he does become happy in his father's dream, she won't see herself as a hindrance.  There's no reason for her to see herself as one. 
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« Reply #31 on: June 08, 2006, 02:20:45 am »

The funny thing is, why do Logan has to be sorted out as this seems to be Mitchums intention... I mean the boy is only 22 or something isn't he...

Most people I know are not half way sorted out ny that age.. and the best way to get sorted out is by trial and error on your own. Not by being forced to do something which you don't want to...

I know that life can not always be about what you want and sometimes you have to do things that you initially objected to...

I think that Logan is perhaps the one thing in Mitchums family life that he hasn't entirely given up on, and that that is why he wants him to follow his path, but in my opinion the best way to obtain that is to let the person figure his own way out. We saw the same pattern with Lorelai, were trying to force her into shape caused the exact oposite effect.

I don't think that Logan is scared of his father as such, but I think that he is frustrated with always being delt with as a failure to the point where he will end up thorougly hating him... again to the exact oposite effect that Mitchum wants...

Mitchum himself says that "That is what my father did to me, and i didn't do me any harm"... But it doesn't seem like he has the best of relationships with his father now... it seems like a relationship of silent detest...

By the way, do we know that Mitchum is only second generation of wealth in the Huntzburger family?? because, when I watched the show it seemed to me like the Huntbergs = Old Money... Also Logans Grandfather were in the LDB as well... which must imply that some kind of wealth was in the family back then...

I know that Logan doesn't seem like someone who at the moment has a focused aim in his life, but I agree with whoever wrote that Mitchum is standing in his way of making this aim or goal clear to himself...

As this is a Mitchum appreciation thread, I perhaps should finish up with writing that I for some reason still likes Mitchum or rather finds him fascinating and would like to know more about what makes him tick and reasons for acting like he does... cause no matter how much I can disagree with his actions he strikes me as someone strong and true to himself, which if nothing else ccalls for some kind of respect.
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« Reply #32 on: June 08, 2006, 12:06:03 pm »


I didn't get the feeling that any planning went into it.  The house is always there, they just had to drive there and do what they wanted.  I think he just doesn't like Mitchum, and just doesn't want to take the time to talk to him.

Well, there was food there and the thermostat was set correctly despite the absence of servants. And he wore a suit and bought two presents. I guess there's no proof he spared any trouble for 're-meeting' Lorelai, but it went off without a hitch. Lorelai was opening her mind about him apace, and he found a way to make Lunk look good and earn a favor, even though he didn't like him much. If it was all just a happy coincidence, he must have inherited his father's hole-in-one luck. And when he did talk to his father, I got the distinct impression that Mitch would have flatly vetoed his plans if he'd known about them.

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So, if they're going to eventually get it anyway, why does it matter if Logan is temporarily unhappy?  It'll all work out.  If it sticks at they aren't real, what's the point of talking?  Of course they aren't real, but they're supposed to be believable as real people.  If I'm not talking about the writing or the choices the directors made or whatever takes me out of the story, if I'm just talking about a guy called Mitchum and his son, Logan, like real people, I can't do it without bringing in real life as a frame of reference. 

That isn't fair, Dani. I just meant that, for a TV character, waiting and miserably biding your time off-camera is a death sentence. People have to do it all the time, but Logan is fictional. He's never more than a cut-and-paste from losing everything, and he's only one good idea from living happily ever after. Yes, they have to do realistic things, but realistic isn't the same as possible, and knowing what's right for them is as good as being able to give it to them here.
'What's the point of talking?' is the most loaded question I've ever been asked, so I'll keep my answer short: I talk about them because I think about them. I imagine scenarios for Gilmores because they stand as archetypes that are a part of me and spinning them all out to their ultimate extremes not only tells me things about myself, but about all of you as well.
That, and like any nosy writer, I have opinions about what would make their writing more realistic, appealing, and karmically correct to the show's premise. Maybe I'm secretly hoping they'll scout me. Smiley

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We don't know what Mitchum's work life is like.  Not completely.  We've never seen him work with his partners, there's no proof that he's not friends with his associates.  But, I'm not sure how that relates to Logan's life not having to be exactly like Mitchum's if he happens to have the same job.  Are all people in Mitchum's business clones of Mitchum?  Do they all act the same way?  If Logan finds that he likes that kind of work, he could still run the business differently. 

You're right, of course. If Mitch is as plausible and laid-back as Logan, he's probably well-liked on a superficial level. But I've never seen anyone, real or fictional, that could be happy with Mitchum's home life if they only had the perfect job. The fact that Mitch gave up his personal life to throw everything into the family business (like he's trying to get Logan to do) seems obvious to me, but I guess it doesn't prove he isn't happy with the choice.

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But, it's okay for Logan to follow her around?  And, if Logan was working as the editor of a paper, or corporate owner (which seems like he wouldn't even need to be there all the time) how would that interfere with Rory's plans of being a reporter?  They'd be in the same business.  She'd still be able to write.  I can't see how this makes Rory lose her career.

Rory has plans and ambitions that will take her all over the world. That's her dream, and all of her boyfriends have had to accept that. Logan has no plans or ambitions except to be with Rory. As editor of multiple papers, Logan might have places all over that he had to be, but they're unlikely to be enough for the 'anywhere but here' girl Rory has always dreamed of being.
'Enough' for Logan seems to be making friends and having adventures, and nothing about being Rory's 'trophy husband' would prevent that.

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Yeah, sinking a yacht is something.  Stealing one is something.  I didn't think I gave the impression I was talking about stuff like that.  I'm talking about purposeful, meaningful, worthwhile things.  I hardly think sinking or stealing a yacht counts.  Logan spent a year doing nothing of value.  And, the fact that it make him reading and willing to help Rory steal a yacht just confirms to me that he had a whole year to do something (and once again, I don't mean something in the definition of a reckless or stupid act, I'm mean something of value) to search for something, to gain an interest, and he didn't do it.  So, why should Mitchum think that him going to Asia is going to be any different?

Logans values and sense of reality are distorted. How could he possibly agree with a normal person (I don't mean to offend you with the label, Dani) about what is worthwhile? When he sinks a yacht, his father pays for it (probably without punishing him) and he takes away a grand adventure and the story of a lifetime. He hasn't had the experiences it would take to learn empathy for the people he put out (they're just a bunch of rich old fogeys who never use it anyway) and until he does, without a safety net to deal with the consequences of his actions, he may never realize that what he does can actually hurt someone. At his age, it may be impossible for his father to teach him, and Mitch seems to think taking Logans trust fund would kill the boy anyway.

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Wasteful to society, for one thing.  People are supposed to do something with their lives.  Contribute.  Add something or do a service or something.  And, I don't think Logan is a complete slacker.  I just think he finds it easier to go with the flow.  Even if the flow is doing something he doesn't like.  The thing is, Mitchum isn't tying him down, he didn't bodily throw Logan on the plane to London, or to any of the meetings.  Logan could step away.  I don't think pleasing his family is that big a motivator.  If it was, he'd work harder.  He wouldn't just ignore things.  He'd go to all the meetings, he'd do the lunches or whatever, and he wouldn't put things off.  I'm not saying he should do that (especially if he had an alternative) but when someone puts earning someone else's approval high on their list, they work more at it.  Logan's actions don't strike me as someone desperate for his father's approval.  They strike me as someone who doesn't like his life, but lacks the courage to do anything different.  Staying with the family business, even if he doesn't like it, is a pretty sure bet of success.  The Huntzberger name probably is enough, and he's lived and breathed all of it for years.  Logan striking out on his own, doing something else, is risky, it's scary.  It's easier to stick with it and complain.   

Logan has been paying his family back for having him since he was old enough to read the fine print on the family crest. He may not be in the mood to owe society. And until he met Rory, he never gave any sign of not following through his entire life. This may be because of his father's hounding, but I think Logan feels it when his father is angry or cold to him, the same way Lorelai feels it when Emily does the same. Mitch has been telling him what he was going to do with his life for a long time, and everytime he resists, his father corrects him. Their whole relationship is contingent on him doing this one thing his father asks of him, and he still stays, even though doing it is making him sick. Yeah, he's trying to win his father's love, and his father is definitely using that to manipulate him. Maybe the same way his father steered him into line.

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Okay, this I can get behind.  It seemed like if Logan had said he wanted to be a coked out bum, Mitchum should just sit there and not do anything.  I'm cool with him having Logan start at the bottom. 

No, that would be taking after his mother, and Mitch's father would never allow it.

As for the Daisy Miller reference, I was talking about Colin and Finn and the Lush and Doofs. If, as you suggest, Rory isn't even on Mitch's radar, (poor fool, doesn't he know she's the main character?) then, logically, it must be the LDB that Mitch thinks Logan can't resist. But there are plenty of drunken adventures in London (probably.) Rory had already put Colin and Finn in their place and begun pointing out flaws in the stunts (with one dazzling unspoken 'I told you so' forever behind them)
I think what arrested her in the elevator was the 'Daisy Miller' comparison. If Logan said no in defiance of his preset future, it's a sign of adulthood. If he says no because he's fixated on her, it will be her fault if he never learns how to handle his life.
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« Reply #33 on: June 08, 2006, 12:51:18 pm »

Mitchum may feel that respect is more important than being liked.  He probably respects what his own dad did to him, so he thinks that if he does the same thing, Logan may not like him, but he'll respect him for it.  

I also think Mitchum feels like Logan needs some kind of push now, because he doesn't see any real inkling of anything.  It's not that he's squashing Logan's dreams.  He feels this need to give him one, because he doesn't see anything there.  And, I think he's been paying attention.  I think someone over at Television Without Pity brought it up, but Mitchum has to be paying some attention to Logan.  He knows Colin and Finn are probably Logan's best friends.  And, it's not like Logan only hangs out with them, what with the parties he organizes and the fact that he's pretty popular.  And, I'm sure Logan doesn't hang out with the family or have them over.  He knew enough to ask Rory if she was at the graduation (so he knows this relationship is still going on).  

The thing is, every other young person who's had a real significance on the show (aside from Tristan, Madeline, and Louise, who I don't count) have all had passions or interests that could become passions.  Rory had journalism and reading, Jess had reading, Lane had music, even Zach has music, Paris has medicine and also journalism.  And, although it was written as just being a gift for Rory, I don't think anyone can build a whole car without talent and some interest in it (you have to have an interest in it to even think up the idea of a homemade car as a gift) so that could count as Dean's.  They haven't given Logan anything like that.  And, they could have written the story as Logan's own natural inclinations are being pushed down by Mitchum.  They sort of did that with Lane and Mrs. Kim.  I wish there could have been a scene or two of Logan doing something that was just about him, not about parties or Rory, like sketching in a pad or something when they show him on the phone with Rory.  Then, that would have planted a seed.  Logan likes drawing.  If only he felt he could cultivate that.  They could have had that and made the story into him thinking he wouldn't be able to do anything with it because of Mitchum, or even not considering it as more than doodling.  And, think how it could have effected Rory's conversation with Mitchum in the elevator.  Instead of just being about her, she could have said, "Do you know your son is a pretty talented artist?  Maybe he should be doing that."  I have a whole conversation thought out and a whole storyline that could come from that, but I'll spare everyone my imaginations on that Wink

Now, what a writer intends and what people see on the screen aren't always the same, so no one is wrong if they don't see it like this, but I think the intent of the storyline is that Mitchum has watched Logan, and thinks that if left up to his own devices he's not going to just spontaneously find a path, find some career he wants.  Leaving him alone, he fears that Logan will eventually be the oldest living LDB member.  He feels it's better to reach him early, rather than later.  And, the later he tries, the less he'll really be able to.  I mean, it's one thing for a father to send his 22 year old son to London for a year.  It's another to try and make his 29 year old son.  

I do think, whether or not he's going about it the wrong way, that it's a good thing that he does feel Logan should be doing something.  That just because he doesn't have a financial need to do something is no reason why he shouldn't.  I don't begrudge trust fund babies their money or the fact that they don't have to work (they can't help that, since it all happened before they were born) but I do think it's a bad attitude for parents to pile them on with money and telling them to let loose, and not do anything worthwhile but think of their own pleasure.  That's why I like Mitchum.  He doesn't deny that Logan is rich, and doesn't say that Logan can't enjoy his priveleges, but he also feels that Logan should be doing something responsible, doing some kind of work.


lessa, I'll address your last post after another one has come up, because responding would make this one really incredibly long.
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« Reply #34 on: June 08, 2006, 07:13:14 pm »

lessa, I'll address your last post after another one has come up, because responding would make this one really incredibly long.

Seriously. I keep expecting a mod to throw a bucket of water on us.

What was Jason's dream, by the way? I think Logan resembles him most.

Since this is a Mitch Huntzberger appreciation thread, (As Merovia pointed out,) I should admit that I don't think any of this is really his fault. If Logan had been an average and accommodating boy, an obedient little nincompoop incapable of independent thought, Mitch's approach would be ideal for stretching his potential to fit the family's needs. But Logan's abilities already far exceed the demands of his 'path' and I think he's beginning to question his father's personal choices in a way he wouldn't have as a child.
Mitch isn't the first parent to have difficulty giving positive direction to his gifted child. Maybe instead of studying his son from afar, Mitch could talk to his son and find out what's really important to him. But to do that he'd have to let go of Logan's future and actually ask him what he wants to do instead. (I looked it up - no one has. I don't count the fight with Rory over Jess.)
Mitch might accept that he can no longer control his adult son and find some other way to relate to him, but I think maybe he's got so much emotionally invested in Logan that he can't. Maybe Logan's success represents his chance to escape, or he wants to have a bud in his industry who could understand him. Maybe even just a desire to see Logan settled so he can stop worrying about his family name dying out. Whatever the reason, Logan running the family business is his dream, not Logan's and the only reason Logan would ever do it is to make him happy. Too bad it wouldn't work.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2006, 07:15:06 pm by lessa » Logged

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« Reply #35 on: June 08, 2006, 09:44:08 pm »

That isn't fair, Dani. I just meant that, for a TV character, waiting and miserably biding your time off-camera is a death sentence. People have to do it all the time, but Logan is fictional. He's never more than a cut-and-paste from losing everything, and he's only one good idea from living happily ever after. Yes, they have to do realistic things, but realistic isn't the same as possible, and knowing what's right for them is as good as being able to give it to them here.


'What's the point of talking?' is the most loaded question I've ever been asked, so I'll keep my answer short: I talk about them because I think about them. I imagine scenarios for Gilmores because they stand as archetypes that are a part of me and spinning them all out to their ultimate extremes not only tells me things about myself, but about all of you as well.
That, and like any nosy writer, I have opinions about what would make their writing more realistic, appealing, and karmically correct to the show's premise. Maybe I'm secretly hoping they'll scout me. Smiley


What's the point of talking was because I perceived (and I guess I was wrong) an attempt to shut down my interpretation.  They're not real, so why bring up real life issues like people not always getting to do what they want?  I personally don't see how them not being real is a counter argument to saying that people don't always get to do what they want, but it's not one for whether or not a character deserves to be happy. To me, both are looking at the characters like real people.  I mean, a fake person can always get what they want if the creator decides.  And, a fake person doesn't really "deserve" anything.  But, it seems we're both debating as if Logan was real.  Which makes sense. When I talk about characters, I usually act like they are real.  And, if Logan was real, I'd say it wasn't a good thing for him to not being doing some work.  So, I say it here, and for me at least, the fact that he isn't real is irrelevant to my argument.  So, when I hear they're not real, I hear "so there's no point in voicing that opinion, it's not worthy of even being brought up."  If I'm wrong, I apologize.

Anyway, I say a good tv show should not blatantly be one good idea or one bad idea from a character being happy.  I want to see growth and sometimes seeing characters not get what they want makes for good tv.  I don't expect Logan to be off camera miserable during next season.  I mean, he's signed on for 13 episodes, and I wouldn't be surprised if he came back before the year is up.  (Which I really hope is for something more than just wanting to be with Rory) But, if he's not happy in every episode, or if he's doing something he doesn't want to do, I don't think that's a bad thing.  I might feel sympathetic to him, but I might also feel there's an opportunity for character growth, which I'd like to see as much as seeing him and Rory happy together.


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You're right, of course. If Mitch is as plausible and laid-back as Logan, he's probably well-liked on a superficial level. But I've never seen anyone, real or fictional, that could be happy with Mitchum's home life if they only had the perfect job. The fact that Mitch gave up his personal life to throw everything into the family business (like he's trying to get Logan to do) seems obvious to me, but I guess it doesn't prove he isn't happy with the choice.

I'm not talking about his home life.  (And I don't know that he gave up his personal life to throw everything into the family business.  It could be the other way around.  His personal life could -and I don't know that it does- suck, and he threw himself into work to compensate for that)  But, see, I think if one area of your life is bad, you can still find happiness in another area.  In fact, I'd say it's what most people are like, because it's probably what life is like anyway.  Because I'd say most people have some area of their life that sucks.  But, they can still find some happiness in other aspects.  So, no Mitchum might not be perfectly happy (and I don't know that I agree that he is unhappy) but he's happy with his job.  And, I'm only talking about his job.  So, he still might reason that despite Logan not jumping at the chance, that he'll grow to like the work, like he did.  And, Mitchum's work life doesn't necessarily have to be directly correlated to his home life, so wanting Logan to follow in his professional footsteps doesn't mean Logan is doomed to follow in his personal footsteps.  I'm sure there are people just as successful in business as Mitchum (and there's no saying Logan would have to operate the business in the same manner as Mitchum did) who have great home lives.



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Rory has plans and ambitions that will take her all over the world. That's her dream, and all of her boyfriends have had to accept that. Logan has no plans or ambitions except to be with Rory. As editor of multiple papers, Logan might have places all over that he had to be, but they're unlikely to be enough for the 'anywhere but here' girl Rory has always dreamed of being.
'Enough' for Logan seems to be making friends and having adventures, and nothing about being Rory's 'trophy husband' would prevent that.

I'm afraid I still don't see how the Huntzberger business, which is the newspaper business, which is the field Rory wants to work in, will keep Rory from working in the field she wants to work in.  I can't imagine a dynasty like the Huntzberger dynasty wouldn't have offices and businesses in big cities where exciting news would happen all over the world.  Not to mention that sometimes, people do spend some time apart for work.  So, Rory wouldn't have to be stuck by his side at all times, even if somehow the papers the family owns are in places that wouldn't let Rory persue her own ambition.  She has a home port in Hartford, or some other city where she and Logan live, and she goes out on assignments at different times.  It's really no different from Richard traveling for business and coming back home to Emily.  He's not stuck in Hartford because of Emily, and wouldn't be if Emily had an actual job that was the reason she stuck close to home.  And, I think, aside from a certain storyline (that they dropped) Richard and Emily have a happy and stable marriage despite him sometimes being out of the country while she's home. 



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Logans values and sense of reality are distorted. How could he possibly agree with a normal person (I don't mean to offend you with the label, Dani) about what is worthwhile? When he sinks a yacht, his father pays for it (probably without punishing him) and he takes away a grand adventure and the story of a lifetime. He hasn't had the experiences it would take to learn empathy for the people he put out (they're just a bunch of rich old fogeys who never use it anyway) and until he does, without a safety net to deal with the consequences of his actions, he may never realize that what he does can actually hurt someone. At his age, it may be impossible for his father to teach him, and Mitch seems to think taking Logans trust fund would kill the boy anyway.

Okay, but I'm talking about my definition.  And, what I perceive to be Mitchum's.  So, why should Mitchum think that, if left to his own devices, Logan is going to do anything worthwhile?  When the only evidence was, a whole year away from family responsibilities (and I'm speculating myself, here) where he could have "found himself" found something he wanted to do, all he did was sink a yacht.  Why should he feel that going to Asia on a pleasure trip with his girlfriend is going to awaken Logan?  Yeah, they might not sink a yacht (although, prior experience would tell Mitchum that stealing one is a possibility and Rory could possibly be an accesssory -or the instigator) but he has no real reason to think that it won't be anything but another pleasure trip, and nothing but pleasure.  But, I like the idea of him cutting off Logan's trust fund.  But, that leads to then what?  Right now, I'd say Logan's only skill is within the family business (he may have untapped talents, but he hasn't worked to develop them, so he probably would have a hard time making a living at it at first).  So, I'd say taking away the trust fund and doing nothing would be callous.  Taking away his trust fund and putting him to work I think is responsible.  Its not babying him and making life easy, and it's not just letting him sink or become homeless with no job.  Mitchum could say, "okay no trust fund unless you find some work to do.  It doesn't have to be the family business.  You decide on something."  That would be perfect, but I'd never claim Mitchum to be perfect.  And, at least in my interpretation, Logan doesn't really want to do anything, so he wouldn't have an answer.  And, for me, that's unacceptable.  He should want to do something.  He should have an interest in something, aside from Rory.  If everything Rory did was only wrapped up in being a good girlfriend, I'd say that was a one dimensional existance for her, so I have to feel the same way about Logan. 

BTW, how much does your average reporter make?  Can they support two people on that kind of salary?  Taking into account that it takes time to become a Christiane Amanapour -and I have no idea how much she makes, either.  Would the two of them be able to live a decent life on what Rory makes alone?


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Logan has been paying his family back for having him since he was old enough to read the fine print on the family crest. He may not be in the mood to owe society. And until he met Rory, he never gave any sign of not following through his entire life. This may be because of his father's hounding, but I think Logan feels it when his father is angry or cold to him, the same way Lorelai feels it when Emily does the same. Mitch has been telling him what he was going to do with his life for a long time, and everytime he resists, his father corrects him. Their whole relationship is contingent on him doing this one thing his father asks of him, and he still stays, even though doing it is making him sick. Yeah, he's trying to win his father's love, and his father is definitely using that to manipulate him. Maybe the same way his father steered him into line.

Well, again, for me, sometimes the ultimate end isn't always what a person wants.  Again, like I said, I'm treating Logan like I would if he were real (but don't worry, I haven't gone totally off the deep end.  Not on that account, anyway) and if he were real, I'd say basically who cares if you feel like you should be doing something with your life?  It's selfish to expect everything to move in order to make you happy.  (And, I'm not saying he shouldn't ever be happy or get anything he wants) I think people are supposed to do something with their lives.  I think if people have a talent or a skill or something they should share it, they should put it to use.  Them being in the mood to do so, doesn't factor (in my opinion). 


I don't see Mitchum as trying to manipulate Logan's love.  I see him as wanting Logan to be a responsible citizen.  I see Mitchum as being a very honest straight talker.  Maybe some might see him as too brutally honest.  But, I think he spoke the truth to Rory.  He wants Logan on a path.  In his mind, he sees Logan drifting, doing nothing but goofing off, still doing the LDB.  So, he wants Logan on a path.  Which has nothing to do with separating him from Rory (I mean, semesters end, Rory could spend time with him at the end of the semester, Logan obviously will be coming back on certain holidays  -and it's not perfect, it's not the best, but obviously it's not like sending Logan off to some secret place where Rory can never have contact with him for the entire year in order to keep them away) and has nothing to do with wanting to take advantage of Logan's love.  Honestly, I think if Logan was doing something that was different from the family business, but was doing something or was showing that he was thinking of what he wanted after college and after the LDB, I don't think Mitchum would have a problem with that. 

And from what I'm seeing, I really doubt Logan was being a completely "good little boy" obeying the rules and making it seem like he was all eager beaver to join the family until Rory came.  I'm guessing not going to a meeting Mitchum set up, or rebelling to some extent has been happening since Mitchum started telling him he should be doing that.
 
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Okay, this I can get behind.  It seemed like if Logan had said he wanted to be a coked out bum, Mitchum should just sit there and not do anything.  I'm cool with him having Logan start at the bottom. 

No, that would be taking after his mother, and Mitch's father would never allow it.
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Do you mean being a coked out bum would be taking after his mother or starting at the bottom is taking after her?  Mitchum may not have started out sweeping the offices, but he did earn his way as a reporter, he didn't just get handed the executive suite. 

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As for the Daisy Miller reference, I was talking about Colin and Finn and the Lush and Doofs. If, as you suggest, Rory isn't even on Mitch's radar, (poor fool, doesn't he know she's the main character?) then, logically, it must be the LDB that Mitch thinks Logan can't resist. But there are plenty of drunken adventures in London (probably.) Rory had already put Colin and Finn in their place and begun pointing out flaws in the stunts (with one dazzling unspoken 'I told you so' forever behind them)

One of the things I love about Mitchum is he doesn't see Rory as anything special.  He's probably gained some admiration for her getting back on the horse and becoming Yale editor, and probably doesn't think she's a bad girlfriend -or think much of her in that respect at all- but he hasn't fallen under her spell.  And, I think Colin and Finn are sweet, but I still think they're pretty irresponsible.  They may not be doing any more jumping off cliffs, but they're still partying and aren't at all evolved in the relationship area.  In Partings, they were still doing tag team hitting on girls (one who had been in a serious relationship and had just gotten back together with her boyfriend, unbeknowest to them).  They're still all about the scoring points and staying out all night.  So, while I don't think they have the power to bring him down, I don't think they're going to be much of an influence for doing anything more than partying.  But, yes, there is a possibility of having drunk parties in London.  But, maybe Mitchum feels that Logan just does all that because of the crowd he hangs out with, rather than he just naturally wants to party all the time.  And, sending him away temporarily from people like Colin and Finn (taking into consideration that he knows them and he's pals with them, they're not just random people to party with) will get him grounded and settled, so when he comes back, he'll see that life isn't all about personal gratification and having a good time.


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I think what arrested her in the elevator was the 'Daisy Miller' comparison. If Logan said no in defiance of his preset future, it's a sign of adulthood. If he says no because he's fixated on her, it will be her fault if he never learns how to handle his life.

I wouldn't say it was her fault.  Logan is ultimately responsible for his own life.  If he's fixated on her, she didn't make him that way.  Well, maybe those pesky pheremones she seems to bathe in.


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Seriously. I keep expecting a mod to throw a bucket of water on us.

They probably intend to, but when they get halfway through some of our posts, they're asleep.
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« Reply #36 on: June 09, 2006, 12:55:33 pm »

  I personally don't see how them not being real is a counter argument to saying that people don't always get to do what they want, but it's not one for whether or not a character deserves to be happy. To me, both are looking at the characters like real people.  I mean, a fake peron can always get what they want if the creator decides.  And, a fake person doesn't really "deserve" anything.  But, it seems we're both debating as if Logan was real.  Which makes sense. When I talk about characters, I usually act like they are real.  And, if Logan was real, I'd say it wasn't a good thing for him to not being doing some work.

If Logan were real, there's only so much any of us could do to make him behave. As authors, we have that power, through the 'people' who affect his behavior. In this case, we're talking about Mitch. His relationship with Logan is far bigger than this trip to London, and the horribly twisted shape of it doesn't seem to bother him. Making Mitch care about his son in a more nurturing way sounds like a job for Rory (Re: the hospital visit) and as a main character, she is the most easily manipulatable anyway. So we set up our dominoes: Create a scenario in which Rory stands up to Mitch, Mitch opens up to Logan, Logan finally says what he really wants to say (whatever that is) in a classic "Gilmore Moment" and everybody cries. (I seriously labor under the delusion I should write for them.)
But the premise of the show seems to be that honest communication is key. Any scenario that gets them talking without any preconditions will do to show us who they really 'are.'

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I mean, he's signed on for 13 episodes, and I wouldn't be surprised if he came back before the year is up.  (Which I really hope is for something more than just wanting to be with Rory) But, if he's not happy in every episode, or if he's doing something he doesn't want to do, I don't think that's a bad thing.  I might feel sympathetic to him, but I might also feel there's an opportunity for character growth, which I'd like to see as much as seeing him and Rory happy together.

There is so much potential for drama in Rory's reaction to Mitch. Sooner or later she's going to have to finish an argument with him if she wants to repair the damage between him and Logan, let alone marry Logan. (The idea that Shira 'joined forces' with Mitch's father to make him behave would explain a lot to me.) The thing about real life and fiction is that in fiction, nothing stays put. If Logan is going to be a part of this thing, he can't let sleeping dogs lie with his father, and who wins that fight may also be an opportunity for Mitch to 'grow.'


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I'm not talking about his home life.  (And I don't know that he gave up his personal life to throw everything into the family business.  It could be the other way around.  His personal life could -and I don't know that it does- suck, and he threw himself into work to compensate for that) 

That's a good point. Mitch would have to give up on his family to do that, though. Maybe his father's manipulations in his home life seemed larger than life or uncontradictable somehow (the way his edicts seem to Logan) and he just didn't think there was anything he could do. It would explain why he plays down Logan's personal life so much: He wants to spare his son the pain of a failed family. Kind of like a self-fulfilling prophecy, even if it's well-intentioned.


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I'm afraid I still don't see how the Huntzberger business, which is the newspaper business, which is the field Rory wants to work in, will keep Rory from working in the field she wants to work in.  I can't imagine a dynasty like the Huntzberger dynasty wouldn't have offices and businesses in big cities where exciting news would happen all over the world.  Not to mention that sometimes, people do spend some time apart for work. 

It's really no different from Richard traveling for business and coming back home to Emily.  He's not stuck in Hartford because of Emily, and wouldn't be if Emily had an actual job that was the reason she stuck close to home.  And, I think, aside from a certain storyline (that they dropped) Richard and Emily have a happy and stable marriage despite him sometimes being out of the country while she's home.
 

Rory doesn't want to just work in her field, she wants to be a foreign correspondent. It would be difficult for Logan to arrange that if Mitch (who would be his boss) doesn't think she has 'it.' Besides, as editor, he'd be strapped to a desk or tied to his newsrooms. Maybe not the ones in Fez.
And another thing: Emily considers her work for the DAR very important. For all we know, Richard's been tied to Hartford for decades so that she can stay close to her base of power. And wasn't that dropped plot about the very thing Mitch is doing? That is, valuing his work above his family and friends.


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Okay, but I'm talking about my definition.  And, what I perceive to be Mitchum's.  So, why should Mitchum think that, if left to his own devices, Logan is going to do anything worthwhile?  When the only evidence was, a whole year away from family responsibilities (and I'm speculating myself, here) where he could have "found himself" found something he wanted to do, all he did was sink a yacht.

BTW, how much does your average reporter make?  Can they support two people on that kind of salary?  Taking into account that it takes time to become a Christiane Amanapour -and I have no idea how much she makes, either.  Would the two of them be able to live a decent life on what Rory makes alone?

If Mitch was raised the same way, why would he feel any different than Logan did? After all, it was him distorting Logan's values to begin with. And we don't know that that's the only thing he did that year (I mean, come on, stealing a yacht takes, what, four hours?) it's just the only thing anybody ever mentions. It's possible that he met a girl and developed a fondness for the sea. Mitch lowers the boom on the girl and the career as a sailor, and Logan, feeling frustrated and helpless about his future and depressed about his girl, acts out by stealing a yacht for his friends' amusement. Why not?
I don't think a foreign correspondent makes Huntzberger money, but she'll be living on expense accounts and she's coming into some trust money of her own. (Even if Trix's thing falls through, she's got rich relatives dropping like flies and she's everybody's favorite progeny. Lorelai can't screw up all of them.) Besides, Logan's pretty sharp. He may have been putting allowance money into a portfolio this whole time. It didn't sound like he didn't know how he would live if Rory asked him to stay.


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Well, again, for me, sometimes the ultimate end isn't always what a person wants.  Again, like I said, I'm treating Logan like I would if he were real (but don't worry, I haven't gone totally off the deep end.  Not on that account, anyway) and if he were real, I'd say basically who cares if you feel like you should be doing something with your life?  It's selfish to expect everything to move in order to make you happy.  (And, I'm not saying he shouldn't ever be happy or get anything he wants) I think people are supposed to do something with their lives.  I think if people have a talent or a skill or something they should share it, they should put it to use.  Them being in the mood to do so, doesn't factor (in my opinion). 

I think Jess is also qualified to take Logan at face value, and he agrees that Logan is just some jerk in a Porsche who doesn't appreciate what's been handed to him. Maybe so, but in fiction we are not afforded the luxury of only having one facet of Logan or Mitch to judge.
Logan seems in-your-face and jerky when challenging people who intimidate him, but once you meet his father, you can see why winning is more important than being right to him.
Logan seems kind of normal on the outside, so you don't expect him to do horrible things like attempt suicide (via liquor or cliffside) or have sex with all his sister's bridesmaids in a fit of depression. But that makes sense, too, when you learn what a compulsive junkie his mother is.
Logan seems very in control of events, so it seems impossible that he doesn't know he can walk away from his father. But when you see his family arguing, their chain of command becomes crystal clear, and Logan seems weak and powerless whenever facing anyone of 'higher rank.'
It doesn't seem possible that Logan doesn't know that giving back to humanity is just what people do when they're responsible and good. But there may be some reason or cause that he looks down on community service, or feels that his touch might poison such a venture. He works for his family and his family gives to charity, and while he's with his family, it's a sufficient rationale.

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I don't see Mitchum as trying to manipulate Logan's love.  I see him as wanting Logan to be a responsible citizen.  I see Mitchum as being a very honest straight talker.  Maybe some might see him as too brutally honest.  But, I think he spoke the truth to Rory.  He wants Logan on a path.  In his mind, he sees Logan drifting, doing nothing but goofing off, still doing the LDB.  So, he wants Logan on a path.
And from what I'm seeing, I really doubt Logan was being a completely "good little boy" obeying the rules and making it seem like he was all eager beaver to join the family until Rory came.  I'm guessing not going to a meeting Mitchum set up, or rebelling to some extent has been happening since Mitchum started telling him he should be doing that.

What he's doing is no different than Richard attempting to bribe Rory back into Yale. And he's getting similar results to the ones Lorelai predicted. Lorelai couldn't back down about Yale, and once Rory'd enlisted her grandparents, Lorelai knew she was serious about dropping out. Mitch can't back down about keeping Logan on a path, but from what he says, Logan's never really had his heart on that path. Rory didn't know what she wanted when she dropped out, but she was able to stop her mother from deciding for her long enough for Lorelai to realize she had to trust her. Lorelai was able to stand by while Rory went through mortal and spiritual peril, chasing the LDB and the DAR. She made it through because Logan and Emily love her, and Logan will make it, too, if Mitch ever has the balls to swallow that there are some things that fall outside his control.
To be fair to Mitch, though, he may be oblivious to all of this. He may actually believe that Logan would leave if he wanted to. But to believe that, he'd also have to believe that Logan was some kind of screwup who was actually trying to do what he wanted, and messing up because he needed a little authoritarian guidance. Under that illusion, he might think that Logan really did want to live the family dream and Rory really was just a tempting distraction.

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Do you mean being a coked out bum would be taking after his mother or starting at the bottom is taking after her?  Mitchum may not have started out sweeping the offices, but he did earn his way as a reporter, he didn't just get handed the executive suite. 

He said he was raised the same way as he's trying to raise Logan. I assume that meant the same 'leg up.' I was talking about the coked-out bum thing.

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One of the things I love about Mitchum is he doesn't see Rory as anything special.  He's probably gained some admiration for her getting back on the horse and becoming Yale editor, and probably doesn't think she's a bad girlfriend -or think much of her in that respect at all- but he hasn't fallen under her spell.  And, I think Colin and Finn are sweet, but I still think they're pretty irresponsible.  They may not be doing any more jumping off cliffs, but they're still partying and aren't at all evolved in the relationship area.

If Mitch doesn't see Rory as special, it proves he's incapable of seeing past her waify, gorgeous exterior.  And that he doesn't know she has (or is getting to have) more impact on Logan than Colin and Finn. Rory is leaving more and more bad habits behind now that she's back at Yale, and Logan is trying to emulate her. If he feels he's lost Rory because he's deprived of her presence, he may lose sight of the reasons he's changed so much. (Don't discount the possiblilty: he thought they'd broken up over a fight. Would a phone-fight be any different? Hmm. How could Mitch instigate a phone-fight...)

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I wouldn't say it was her fault.  Logan is ultimately responsible for his own life.  If he's fixated on her, she didn't make him that way.  Well, maybe those pesky pheremones she seems to bathe in.

Yeah, but she might blame herself. Logan did say that a word from her would kick off the inevitable confrontation with his father. She may want Logan to decide for himself, but she, like Mitch, has lost faith in his abilty to do so. Given that, she couldn't do anything to tilt Logan either way, or she would inevitably be responsible for the outcome. So she endorses biding his time, and showing him her pro/con list about London. Now he'd better go, or all that crying and closure will be for nothing. But Logan could be afraid she just wouldn't want to be with him if he weren't 'Logan Huntzberger, party boy/heir extraordinaire.' If she doesn't tell him to say 'no' he may think she doesn't want to hold his hand while he crawls around rock-bottom looking for a path without his usual resources.
Conversely, Mitch may hold himself responsible for Logan being so skewed, and he is already blaming himself for the bleak future he's pictured Logan having because of that. If that's the case, Logan's career is his decision, because anything bad that happens to Logan is his fault.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2006, 07:10:57 pm by lessa » Logged

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« Reply #37 on: June 12, 2006, 11:41:39 pm »

Wow lessa you've really got lots to say and I can't wait too read it all, but I'm going to have to wait because I'm only at the end of season 5 so Mitchum isn't fully involved in any storyline other than Rory interning at the paper.  I thought that the character of Mitchum was set up with so much potential that I for one can't wait to view S6 and get into some discussion on him.  And be assured lessa, I'll be hunting you down for some good coversation Grin
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« Reply #38 on: August 03, 2006, 04:04:58 pm »

At the end of season 5, I was convinced that Mitchum Huntzberger was a no-good, mean, snooty jerk and he was terrible for being rotten to Rory and it was his fault she stole a boat and dropped out of school.  I continued to think that until a couple of weeks ago, when I was watching a rerun of "We've Got Magic To Do".  During the bathroom scene between him and Richard, I realized that he was not a bad guy.  Think about it.  When he first offered Rory the internship, she was reluctant to take it because she didn't want it to be a special privilage for being his son's girlfriend.  So if he had bitten his tongue and not said what he thought about her journalistic talents (or lack of talents), what he would of said to anyone else, wouldn't that have been considered special treatment?  And it was a little annoying that Rory thought that he was sending Logan to Londan just to separate them.  He was just being a parent.  It was clear that he didn't hate Rory or her relationship with Logan, he just wanted Logan to grow up.
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