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1  Gilmore Girls / Relationship Threads / Re: Headliners/Sophies (Logan and Rory) - In omnia paratus on: July 19, 2008, 10:32:09 am
Guess I didn't make my case that within the promiscuity there was a decency about Logan's dealings. Oh, well.

Okay, detour.  I actually agree about them being too young.  I never wanted them to get married at that time, and I think DP knew that the issue of marriage at that point would lead to a break up.  What I think would have been better would be if Rory had the job offer in the first place.  With a concrete offer, I don't think Logan would have proposed.  I think he would have said, "you do this, and I'll wait."  I don't know how it all works, but I assume the two year thing isn't something that would happen all the time.  I mean, she might still have needed to travel, but not go off for years at a time on a regular basis.  And, then, they could have settled down in a home base and gotten married.  I just haven't decided whether I think they would have agreed to break up for those two years in the belief that tying themselves down to long distance relationship for that long wouldn't be fair and that they'd see what happened when she got back, or if it would have been a longer example of what they did when Logan was in London.  I'd prefer they just kept up a long distance relationship, since the show would have ended before she got back.

That would have satisfied me, because they would still be looking forward to being together.  It should have satisfied people who equated being with Logan (or any man) with being dependent, because Rory would have had two full years of being independent.  Even if she and Logan still considered themselves a couple, I'd say that's pretty independent being states away from friends, family, and your boyfriend.
2  Gilmore Girls / Relationship Threads / Re: Headliners/Sophies (Logan and Rory) - In omnia paratus on: July 19, 2008, 01:39:02 am
Well, I'm not normally for the whole breaking up, getting into other relationships and finding each other again thing.  Too star crossed, "meant to be" thing that turned me off L/L (not that I was ever turned on).  But, if the other relationships were definitely finished for a good time before- no being with someone and then realizing that the other person was wrong because they ran into each other again, and if none of those other relationships were too serious, I could go with that.  I'd hate to think of Rory or Logan leaving a trail of broken hearts just to find each other again.  Not my idea of romantic.  And, if they slowly built the relationship back up - starting as friends and getting closer.  No magical immediate reunion.  That would work.

As far as not having the opportunity to cheat, I'd say it had to do with more than circumstance.  The thing is, I think Logan could have been in a relationship with some - maybe most- of the girls and women he dated casually.  Strictly from a shallow pov (and I get the feeling that he dated a lot of shallow women), Logan was a pretty good catch.  Fun, exciting, super rich.  That's not even adding the more substantial qualities.  If nothing else, I think at least some would have jumped to be considered Logan's girlfriend just for the status alone (I tamed Logan Huntzburger!).    If I remember correctly, they never said he gave any woman any false ideas or made false promises to her.  He could have pretended to be in a relationship and still seen other women behind his girlfriend's back.  If that were the case, there probably would have been a scene where Rory encounters the betrayed woman and she warned her about who Logan really was.  I know I'm setting my argument up for a fall, but what the heck.  Adultery just seems too deceitful for him.
3  Gilmore Girls / Relationship Threads / Re: Headliners/Sophies (Logan and Rory) - In omnia paratus on: July 18, 2008, 08:30:47 pm
Welll, now I'll expand (evil grin) my thoughts on why I don't see Logan being unfaithful.  Prior to Rory, Logan was never portrayed as a cheater.  He was promiscuous, but it was never that he was in relationships or had the women believe that he was in relationships with them.  He may have been with more than one woman at a time, but none of them had any expectations (or had any right to, considering the casualness of the situations) that they were exclusive.  They said upfront who Logan was - and none of it involved cheating.

Okay, after he got with Rory, the bridesmaids were the only time Logan ever slept with or had any non platonic interaction with any other women besides Rory.  As far as the bridesmaids, well, I do think that the Rory/Logan relationship was extremely well written (with the obvious final break up exception).  And, I say that because I believe Logan did consider himself broken up from Rory at the time.  He said it, and it would have been bad writing, to me, if the intent was for that not to be true.  Ugh.  I mean, it would have been bad writing if he had been lying, since at no point did his story change and at no point did the show contradict that he honestly felt that way.  People can and have disagreed, but that's not the point of this.  Logan should have, and likely did know that Rory would be hurt if she found out, which is partly why he hid it (as well as the whole not wanting to get "caught" -a perfectly human, if not totally noble desire).  But, he didn't knowingly, or consciously betray their relationship, because in his mind there was no more relationship to betray.  And, post bridesmaids was actually a very bumpy patch.  He was coming home every night to a sullen woman who hadn't forgiven him for the bridesmaids (and others have disagreed, but I say being in the apartment wasn't the same as forgiving him) and, although it was never stated either way on the show, I believe certainly wasn't sleeping with him.  And, since the idea that he found affection somewhere else didn't come up on the show, it didn't happen.

And, Logan had two prime opportunities to cheat post bridesmaids.  London was one (a big, almost year long opportunity).  But, actually, I don't think it was that amazing that he didn't cheat on her in London.  He went there to make good for her and to be grown up, and doing that wouldn't have fit.  I'd say if anytime was a real prime temptation, it would have been in Vegas after his website deal fell through.  He was at a low point, he was running, likely he wasn't just drinking cokes there with Colin and Finn.  And, he didn't cheat. 

To me, being unfaithful would consist of Logan being perfectly aware that he was still in a relationship with Rory -and it's pretty easy to know when a marriage is broken up.  Not until the divorce- and sleep with someone else.  (I also think the experience with the bridesmaids would mean that Logan would be quite aware that both he and Rory would have to come to an agreement that things were over.  There wouldn't be any repeated "I thought/decided we were broken up without finding out from/informing you" in this case) As far as I can see, there's nothing like that in his history, promiscuity or no.

Of course, I'd like to think that if they got married, they'd work out all the difficulties of jobs and all that and be together as long as Richard and Emily.  But, if that didn't happen, I don't see adultery as the thing that would do it in. 
4  Gilmore Girls / Relationship Threads / Re: Headliners/Sophies (Logan and Rory) - In omnia paratus on: July 18, 2008, 03:47:33 pm
And i'm not convinced Logan would be faithful to Rory long-term.

Long (understatement) time, no post.  Been more interested in another show.  But, I came and saw this, and want to know why you feel that way?  To me, Logan's history both with and before Rory make me sure he would stay faithful to her long term.
5  Episode Discussion / Season 2 / Re: 2.12 - Richard in Stars Hollow on: April 15, 2008, 11:54:31 pm
Okay, you mean when he said that Emily asked her to take him off her hands, and Lorelai said, no.

I think there are two pertinents with Dean and Rory and how Richard behaved.  With Rory, the pertinent thing is, she's Rory, his golden child granddaughter.  I don't think how he treated Rory could be a sign of how he would treat Lorelai.  Besides, aside from a very mild comment about giving her a bookcase (and I'm going by the transcript and don't have the tone in my head, but it didn't seem like a criticism, more like an offer of a gift) he didn't criticize her.  He was actually commending her with the death rock comment.  That he approved of her taste - or approved of her non taste.  So, I don't see where Rory was in a comparable situation to Lorelai in this episode.  Richard was all praise with her.

With Dean, the difference is, he's not Lorelai.  I think Richard treated Lorelai differently, because she was his daughter and he still saw her as a teenager who couldn't be trusted.  Plus, he doesn't have a lifetime history with Richard. One rude dinner.  It was probably a lot easier for him to respond, especially since he knew he had Rory as well as Lorelai in his corner.  And, as far as Gypsy was concerned, Richard was just some annoying guy (maybe she knew him as Rory's grandfather, but certainly didn't know him).  I think it would be much easier for her to be professional.  Richard was merely a customer, and not even that.

As far as not saying anything about the grapefruit or even his horrendously terrible behavior at her job, I figure Lorelai thought that she could put up with it, he was a guest and for the time that she had to actually spend in his company she could be polite enough to let his behavior slide.  But, when he undermined her parental authority he crossed a line.  I don't think she felt anything horrible was going to happen if she commented about the grapefruit (other than a possibly extremely unpleasant car ride later) but it wasn't worth the battle.  The stuff came out in a rush of holding it in during the entire day, but I think the main point was Richard overriding her as a mother.  I personally would have gotten him over the job thing first of all, but that and the car were the most inexcusable ones, and if Lorelai felt the car was the straw that broke the camel's back, I can't really blame her.  And, in the midst of it all, she did try to tell him that Rory's her kid and it's not up to him to make the decisions for Rory.  And, he just didn't get it. 

Okay, confusion time again.  Are you talking about Richard when you say she leaves the door open and saying she didn't for him?  I don't think her not inviting him back signified anything.  It's not like she was cutting him off from Rory.  Rory saw him every Friday, and it was probably a lot more convenient for Rory to see him at his home (Chilton was closer to the elder Gilmore's home than the Crap Shack was, and if Rory wanted she could easily stop by after school.)  Not being invited back to her house didn't shut the door on a relationship with Rory or even change the status quo between the two of them.   Leaving the door open doesn't literally mean an invite to her house, just a door open to Rory's life, which Richard still had. And I doubt she would have refused if Rory had asked for Richard to come back and spend the day at Stars Hollow with her (Rory).  She just would have made herself scarce so she didn't have to deal with his crap.
6  Gilmore Girls / Relationship Threads / Re: Rory's Boyfriends Discussion on: April 15, 2008, 11:14:45 pm
Any examples of how he tried to take care of her?  I also don't understand the books thing.  Not that it's irrelevant, and it's a shared interest they have to a greater degree than Rory's other boyfriends (although, I don't think either Dean or Logan were complete non readers, just not to the extent that Jess and Rory were).  But, I don't see why that is always mentioned as the most concrete reason why Jess is better than any of her other boyfriends. 

I can probably guess what you're referring to by him "understanding her so much more than Logan did."  Does that refer to Jess coming back in season 6 and getting her about not being in school?  I could debate that, but more interestingly, when did Dean verbally abuse her?   
7  Episode Discussion / Season 2 / Re: 2.12 - Richard in Stars Hollow on: April 15, 2008, 03:01:21 pm
A big fat liar in which next paragraph?  As in later dialogue in the episode or the next paragraph in your post? 

If all Lorelai had said was that she didn't appreciate him lecturing her in front of her employees and undermining her authority in front of her daughter, how do you think Richard would have responded? 
8  Gilmore Girls / Appreciation Threads / Re: Logan Huntzberger / Matt Czuchry Appreciation on: April 14, 2008, 04:51:55 pm
But, to be fair, every character was jerky at various moments on the show.
9  Gilmore Girls / Relationship Threads / Re: Rory's Boyfriends Discussion on: April 08, 2008, 02:55:51 pm
Why would marrying Logan have ended up with her throwing her dreams away?  I've really never understood that reasoning.  If the proposal they wrote wasn't designed to lead to a break up, I think Logan would have been very supportive of her traveling on assignments and coming home when she could.  Like Superstarmonkey said, his behavior in Unto the Breach just wasn't in keeping with how he was before.  There was nothing up to that to suggest that he would say, "I can work in London and then in New York and do something while you live back home, but when you want to go off and do your thing, you'd better think twice, missy.  You're staying in the same city, and you can forget about any foreign correspondent dream."

I disagree that she had to be single, but I do agree that if they were going to make her single, they should have found a better way to lead up to it.  And, no, not unless you expect a couple to have a perfect relationship, there wasn't any foreshadowing, at least from my view.  I don't know how much you want to know before you see it, so I won't go into details, but none of the fights seemed to be deal breakers, and setting aside some viewers issues, Rory didn't act like they were deal breakers.  Besides which, when the break up came, it came from Logan anyway - acting out of character.  And, the most aggravating is, two episodes before the break up (Hay, Bale, Maze) seemed to be setting them up for ending happily.  They discussed their future together and he even made peace with Lorelai.  I mean, come on.  If they were going to do it, it would have been better to have it happen while he was in London.  Have the distance be too much then, before they showed that they handled it just fine.  Have them find out that they were in such different places (Rory still in school, Logan in the working world) that they didn't have anything in common now.  Not just a few episodes before the end, "Whoops!  Rory's still got a boyfriend.  Quick, get rid of him.  Doesn't matter how.  He'll propose, she'll say no, and that's all she wrote, folks!"
10  Gilmore Girls / Relationship Threads / Re: Rory's Boyfriends Discussion on: March 18, 2008, 07:51:30 pm
I can definitely see your point about that.  And now that I think about, I suppose it makes sense that Rory eventually forgave him about the bridesmaids thing.  Or did she....?  Also it seems to me that if she really loved him and wanted a family she would have said yes to the proposal. But, obviously, she wasn't.  Because she's Rory, who cared more about her career, obviously.  But Amy S-P did say it wasn't really the ending she would have chosen had she known it was the series finale.  I wonder how she would have ended it...  Cry

I don't think she would have stayed with Logan for another year, including when he was in London and breaking up would have been so much easier, given the distance.  Not saying that long distance relationships can't work, just that if you're going to break up, distance makes it easier.  And, I can't imagine if she hadn't forgiven him, she would have stayed in a relationship that meant she'd spend more time apart instead of breaking it off and being single or finding someone close by.

And, I never believed that you have to want to marry someone - or be ready to marry them (which isn't necessarily the same thing)- and the same time they do to be in love.  I still don't think the reason Rory gave for not wanting to marry him then made sense, just like I still think it was out of character (one of the few times) for Logan to completely blow off an attempt at a long distance relationship.  But, I never got the impression that Rory didn't want to marry him ever
11  Gilmore Girls / Relationship Threads / Re: Rory's Boyfriends Discussion on: March 18, 2008, 01:21:27 am
I personally think Logan's character was remarkably consistent.

Yes!  If anything, he was the most consistent character on the show, until the very inconsistent end.

As far as being boring in season 7 (which I don't agree with - I totally love Logan in season 7), saying he was, for the sake of argument, could that be because the writers weren't comfortable with getting the audience to accept a character who could grow and mature, and yet, still be flawed - and still have flaws believable to the character they created?  I'm just thinking of the flack he got for going to Vegas after losing his money in the business deal, and then for moping around the apartment for what couldn't have been that long.  And, I don't mean just from the people who just never saw any growth.  I mean comments to the effect that his growth was an act - as if any sign of old coping mechanisms or flaws makes the growth completely suspect - one must be a lie.  Every time they tried to remind people that he was a flawed human being, the cry was "dump him!" 

But, if you mean boring as in not doing the wild and crazy things, well, if you're working long hours and trying to make good (and discovering that you like it) it doesn't give much time for jumping off high spaces.  But, I also thought he channeled his adventurous streak into other avenues.  Surprise visits to Rory (about time I mentioned the person whose name is in the thread title) for one thing.  And, the whole business deal was kind of reminiscent of Logan's cliff jump in season 6.  He wasn't in a downward drunken spiral in season 7, but both times, he ignored sensible suggestions from others - Rory when she mentioned that he hadn't taken the right precautions for the cliff jump (as well as I can remember) and Mitchum not wanting to go forward with Logan's business deal.  (Whatever anyone thinks of Mitchum, he's been painted as someone who knows what he's doing business-wise)  Logan got really excited about something, he leaped before he looked, and both times he came crashing down.
12  Gilmore Girls / Relationship Threads / Re: Favorite Gilmore Girls Couple on: March 16, 2008, 10:24:18 am
Well, I did think Jess had grown a lot (and I didn't put the toxic nature of their relationship strictly on his shoulders).  And, I enjoyed him in both his episodes.  For me, season 6 - particularly The Real Paul Anka showed me beyond a shadow of a doubt that Rory was not in love with Jess anymore.  She still has fond feelings, and if she didn't have those pheromones they could shift their relationship to being friends, but she's not in love with him.  She kissed him because of Logan, she stopped because of Logan, and even after acknowledging that it wasn't fair to Jess, she didn't say that she realized she really wanted to be with him.  She didn't say she'd move to Philadelphia, or that she'd go back and finish school and move there, or ask him to move back to Connecticut, or even try to find some way to work out a long distance relationship.  Or even, "how do we make this work?"  Rory didn't do a thing to tell me that she wanted to be with Jess.  That's my reason for not seeing season 6 as proof that they belong together.
13  Gilmore Girls / Relationship Threads / Re: Favorite Gilmore Girls Couple on: March 16, 2008, 09:39:40 am

Rory:Jess(season 6 had to prove that they belong together to anyone with doubts!)

Not really, no.  Just call me Still Doubting Thomas.
14  Episode Discussion / Season 4 / Re: 4.22 - Raincoats and Recipes on: March 14, 2008, 06:45:33 pm
Christopher and Sherry were discussing things/trying to work them out, as I recall.  They hadn't clearly broken up so he and Lorelai were in error.  But, that doesn't mitigate Rory's actions.  She's not a monkey who is only able to mimic Lorelai.  And, since she wasn't a kid, she was 19 (as she said) she was fully capable of knowing right from wrong.  And, for her to fob the discussion off on Lorelai's past actions was the second most childish thing Rory did that night.  The first was her saying "he was my boyfriend first!"  The way she was acting, if Lorelai and Christopher hadn't slept together while he was with Sherry, Rory would have found some other reason to try and say Lorelai had no right to tell her anything.  Maybe bring up that Lorelai got pregnant at 16, and at least she waited until she was 19 and used protection.  Rory just didn't want anyone to say anything to her.  I'm glad Lorelai didn't try to defend herself (like reminding Rory that no one knew Sherry was pregnant at the time) because that would have been playing right into her hands.
15  Episode Discussion / Season 7 / Re: 7.13 - I'd Rather Be in Philadelphia on: January 09, 2008, 10:46:50 am
I don't think Lorelai had to immediately run to Luke to make Christopher's jealousy valid.  Either they're meant to be and there was cause to be jealous, or there wasn't.  And, Christopher was very understanding when Lorelai took the time to go see April in the hospital.  So, I don't think he never gave her a chance.  And, Lorelai admitted that there were feelings for Luke, and I don't think she meant the "old buddy" type feelings. She said the marriage wasn't right, but she also didn't deny that her feelings for Luke were a factor, once they got down to airing things out.  On a situational level, he didn't have a reason to think her running into Luke around town wasn't innocent.  Although, I don't think he ever implied that it wasn't.  He wasn't saying he believed that Lorelai did anything with Luke while she was married to him (Christopher) just that she was still emotionally attached.  And, she admitted she was.  So, overall, I still think Christopher had reason to be jealous.  If I had a husband, and even if he never talked to someone he had been involved with, I'd still feel the marriage had problems if I suspected that he was still harboring romantic feelings for another person.  There's no room for a romantic emotional attachment to a third party in a relationship. 

But, do you think things would have gone fine if he had never expressed any doubts or jealousy?  They might have stayed married if he squashed down his feelings, but the underlying cause would still be there.  And, being the wide-eyed romantic that Christopher was (which is why I also don't get the general belief around the fandom that the weakness between them was on Lorelai's side) when it came to her, he initially thought he'd either be okay with her being divided emotionally or that the division would go away after a time and he'd be fine with holding out until then.  But, he found he wasn't.  And, like I said, I wouldn't be either.  That's why (going way back) I can't fault Dean for being jealous of Jess back when he was living in Stars Hollow, because no matter how much Rory said she chose Dean, she did have feelings for Jess back then.  So, I can't think either of them were idiots in those cases.
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